- This topic has 172 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 7 months ago by
.
- Posts
The UK sits in a very draughty glass house in accusing the EU of being undeomcratic. We have an unelected Head of State, unelected House of Lords and when we do finally get to vote for someone to represent us we use the ridiculous FPTP system which isn’t entirely democratic either. No wonder many Scots want to leave!
The unelected head of state in the Uk has no political power. The unelected head of the EU state has enormous political power.
The unelected House Of Lords has no real power, but yes it would be a good idea to reform or get rid.
I agree the FPTP system isn’t “entirely democratic” but every voting system has its flaws.
Value Is EverythingGinge I think you are looking for something that will never happen to hold up your
arguement. No country seeking independence will say, “but don’t worry, if you don’t like
it when we’re there we can always come back” This 2nd referendum has been brought about
because Scotland wants to be part of Europe, and England has taken that option away. You
keep saying you are just asking for my opinion, and I’ve given it. Let me put it even clearer
if I can. If we move away from the Uk, and join up again with the EU, there is no way back.
It’s a complete hook line and sinker decision, and the Scots (for and against) aren’t stupid
enough that they aren’t fully aware of that. If this referendum goes ahead both those for
independence and those for the union have the chance to vote knowing full well the consequences.
If the decision is to remain, the question of independence is dead in the water, whether you
want to accept that or not, there won’t be another attempt in my lifetime and I’d expect the
SNP to continue in power because they are not, as has been said many times on here, “a single
issue party”.I think this is one of these ocassions Ginge that we have different views which it seems
wont change, so rather than bore the pants off the rest of forum going backwards and forwards
on the same topic of offering a way back in to the union, I think we probably should just about
leave it at that unless you want the last word which I’m happy to let you have. I’m sure there
will be plenty of other topics on this issue (independence) and others that we can lock horns on
again
I think MBV that the true community spirit and respect for all, hasn’t been lost in Scotland.
Even our government (Scottish) was behind the people. Lang may yer lum reek
Probably a mixture of both Big G
You’ve just written off millions of 16 to 25s as idealogical lefties who aren’t part of the real world just because they don’t share your ideology or your view of the “real world”.
That’s your interpretation of what I have written.
I haven’t “written off” anyone just stressing a reality of life.
It’s scientifically accepted that, on average, the human brain is not fully mature until mid-twenties and is generally later in men than women. Prior to reaching maturity there is more of a tendency to make decisions without thinking through the consequences – that’s why under 25’s have to pay higher car insurance premiums.
Socialism will appeal to people – even I would agree it sounds brilliant in theory however, as was the case with Communism, the reality is the dream cannot be delivered. The so called oppressed will still remain oppressed, possibly more brutally.
The only difference between socialism / communism and capitalism is the “fat cats” come in a different guise.
Returning to this thread – although I am a Conservative I am, by no means, a Unionist. I certainly believe the island of Ireland should be a single, independent country – it makes no sense geographically for the island to be split.
Regarding Scottish independence I personally think it would be a mistake, economically and politically.
I can see why some Scots want independence and, regardless of the vacuous statements made in 2014 about “once in a generation” votes I think it is now inevitable there will be another vote because, frankly no politician of ANY party can be trusted.
I’m old but I have to say (and I’m being apolitical here) the current bunch of politicians, across all parties, are the most incompetent I have seen – the number of honourable politicians around is very small.
What happens if there is another narrow “no” vote – will the SNP accept it or will they find another excuse to try for another referendum in another 7 years.
If the vote was a large no vote – would the SNP disband, as their reason for existing would have gone?
If the vote is a narrow yes, what will the SNP do to allay the fears who voted for the Union?
The SNP were very vociferous about people being dragged out of the EU against their will, what about those who would be dragged out of the union against their will?
The next few months / years are going to be interesting.
It’s scientifically accepted that, on average, the human brain is not fully mature until mid-twenties and is generally later in men than women. Prior to reaching maturity there is more of a tendency to make decisions without thinking through the consequences – that’s why under 25’s have to pay higher car insurance premiums.
Ah I see, well I cant argue with that
What happens if there is another narrow “no” vote – will the SNP accept it or will they find another excuse to try for another referendum in another 10 years.
I’ve already said to Ginge that in my opinion if the referendum is to stay then independence
is dead in the water.If the vote was a large no vote – would the SNP disband, as their reason for existing would have gone?
Why on earth would the SNP disband? You’ve already mentioned them on being “a single issue party”.
Your understanding of Scottish politics needs a bit of brushing up. They are not the Scottish
Independence Party, they are the Scottish National Party and have been running the country up here
for the last 14years. If they vote goes to remain in the union, then the SNP will carry on in power.
It’s not every SNP supporter that wants independance. They have just taken a huge majority of seats,
and it’s not all down to their push for independence. If it was then you better get your cash on
Scotland leaving the UK. I think it’s not as simple as that.The SNP were very vociferous about people being dragged out of the EU against their will, what about those who would be dragged out of the union against their will?
Unless more than 50% want independence Paul, they wont be dragged out of the Union and as
for the EU, 62% of voters wanted to remain in the EU. That’s a pretty reounding vote for
remaining in the EU.I agree with you, there are interesting times ahead. I’m not sure how they will go, but I’ll
put up with whatever the eventual outcome is
Do you really think that in another seven years time the SNP won’t want a third referendum if the same circumstances (percentages) occur? Nicola has already said don’t expect the SNP to change its independence view.
So from what you are saying there will be absolutely no way back. So in your opinion SNP / Independence can have (at least) two referendums in comparatively quick succession to see if Scotland wants to be independent… But if Independence wins that second referendum there will never be another referendum to return to the Union – NOT EVEN IF 90% OF SCOTS WANT A RETURN?
And you think Boris Johnson is being undemocratic?
You say Scotland not being in the EU (it’s the EU we’ve left not “Europe”) has changed things and that means there must be a second “once in a generation” referendum in seven years. But surely IF in a future “independent” Scotland the vast majority of Scots want to rejoin the Union… Why should that not change things and be a reason to offer a referendum?
Thank you BigG, you’ve completely changed my mind on this. I thought a second referendum was very close. ie If over 50% of voters voted for Independence parties I would’ve seen that as justification for a second referendum. But blimey, your refusal to treat Unionists the same way… and even blocking a referendum no matter what the percentage of Scots wanted a return… That must be reciprocated. Obviously now it would not be fair for the Scottish Unionists to give you a second once in a generation referendum no matter what the number of Scots want one.
Value Is EverythingI didn’t say anyone couldn’t have another referendum, and I didn’t, as you say, block any
referendum Ginge. You asked, several times, for my opinion. My opinion is that if we do
make the split with the UK and we do enter the EU again, that it will be final, we won’t
be returning. I don’t think there will be an uprising for a return to the UK. I’m not saying
that is what will happen, I’m saying that is what I envisage will happen. You are desperate
to say I am being undemocratic and won’t support or take account of the unionists. I’m not
taking the side of those wanting independence or remaining in the union. I’m taking the side
of Scotland being able to decide which way they want to go. It’s got nothing to do with not
being democratic towards the unionists. I’m saying that if Scotland does break away from
the UK, I don’t forsee it wanting to return. That’s my opinion Ginge, and to be honest I think
you’re being a bit bloody minded by trying to win a point simply talking constantly about a 3rd
referendum for the return to Uk.Nobody, that includes you Ginge believe it or not, knows what will happen in years or decades
to come. I believe that it’s about 30 countries that have gone through the process of having
a referendum and becoming independent since the war. To my knowledge none of them have wanted
to return to their previous state. This is a big decision for Scotland, if we don’t go I think
we will still do well, if we do go I think we will do at least as well with the advantage of being
able to manage our own finances. You are asking for opinions, but as soon as they are given you
argue that they are not guarantees. Well the fact of the matter, one guarantee at least, is that
there are no guarantees.If the majority of voting Scots vote to leave the union, then so be it and that is what we will
do. What happens after that is all speculation at this point. As I said, there are no guarantees,
and I’m not going to be forced into a corner by having to give them.“I didn’t say anyone couldn’t have another referendum, and I didn’t, as you say, block any
referendum Ginge”.Did you not BigG? What is this then?
“Let me put it even clearer if I can. If we move away from the Uk, and join up again with the EU, there is no way back. It’s a complete hook line and sinker decision, and the Scots (for and against) aren’t stupid enough that they aren’t fully aware of that”.
If “there is no way back, It’s a complete hook line and sinker decision”; then there can not be another referendum after independence (which can only mean the Independence side fully intend to block one) and you say that all Scots (for and against) are fully aware of that.
…So you are not even stating it as an opinion either. You’re stating it as a fact. That every Scot is aware “there is no way back”.
Value Is EverythingForgive me for pointing this out but… From a Unionist point of view it looks suspiciously like you’ve only gone back on what you’ve said earlier because you can see that if the Independence side admit to refusing another referendum no matter how many Scots want one… Then there is no justification for the SNP having their second once in a generation referendum either.
Value Is EverythingGinge, the only person I’ve ever heard asking for guarantees of a 3rd referendum to
re-enter the Uk, or for that matter even talking about it is you. You seem obsessed
with it. When does any party seekin independance or any other major shift put an
addendum that should things go wrong, don’t worry here is a way back that we have
put a plan together for. It’s just ridiculous!My opinion hasn’t changed a jot, you asked for an opinion on the 2nd referendum and
I gave it to you, you’ve highlighted it ……“Let me put it even clearer if I can. If we move away from the Uk, and join up again with the EU, there is no way back. It’s a complete hook line and sinker decision, and the Scots (for and against) aren’t stupid enough that they aren’t fully aware of that”.
That’s my opinion as to what will happen if the vote is for independence. I don’t think there
is any chance coming back to the UK, I’m pretty sure that the Scots know this and take account
it before voting and I don’t think there will be any call for a return to the UK. I don’t think
I could have been any clearer. Do you think by asking the same question over and over again that
I’m suddenly going to say “oh hold on Ginge, D’oh, what was I thinking, I couldn’t see it but the
smoke has lifted, you’ve been right all along”.This is getting like the John Isner V Nicolus Mahut tennis match back in 2010. Please don’t ask me
the same question again Ginge as you would get the same answer I gave on page 2,146.I’ll explain in more detail, not trying to change your mind BigG, just for anyone looking in why this question is so important.
For Scotland to be an independent country it will need to write or at least agree a constitution… And part of that will be how – if any – a return to the Union could happen. Obviously if the answer to that is never (no matter what the Scots wanted) or hard to achieve – eg only “once in a generation” – then to be fair to both sides the circumstances on which independence and Unionist (return to the union) Referendums are agreed should also be similar. Or, the circumstances of a possible return to the union referendum can be agreed when organising a second independence referendum.
When the SNP asked for the first referendum they had every right to do so, given there had never been one and the scale of their previous election victory… And it was – both Unionist and Nationalists agreed – a “once in a generation” opportunity, where the result would be accepted by both sides. That’s fair to both sides… As both sides agreed there was no way back on the decision Scots would make in 2014 – at least for as long as a generation…
Scotland has had its “once in a generation” referendum. However, now the Scottish Nationalists want a second referendum in seven years. Well with Brexit and had they got over 50% of votes in an election I could understand their viewpoint that it might be seen as a mandate. But it obviously can not be a second “once in a generation” referendum. Nationalists can not be allowed to have once in a generation referendums until they win. Nor would it be fair to have a second once in a generation referendum so soon after the first – it’s not fair on those who won the first once in a generation referendum. ie Nationalists are not keeping to the first no way back once in a generation referendum, therefore the Unionists can not be expected to stick to the second no way back once in a generation referendum if it goes against them.
So there can only be a mandate for a second Independence referendum if Nationalists agree to treat the Unionists the same as they themselves want to be treated.
ie Independence parties getting over 50% of an election vote is a mandate for a second Independence referendum ONLY if the Nationalists agree to the same 50% triggering a referendum for a return to the Union. If Nationalists want the prospect of a return to the Union to be more difficult then it is only right that a second independence referendum to be more difficult to achieve. So eg if Nationalists want a 60% Unionist election vote to be needed for a return to the Union referendum; then it’s only fair that a 60% Independence election vote should also be needed for a second Independence referendum etc etc. The percentage can be negotiated but needs to be the same for all. imo That sort of agreement is a fair democratic compromise and a way out of this referendum deadlock.
Unfortunately, if Scottish Nationalists insist on there being “no way back” they will need to wait a generation. No way back must mean no way back for both sides and they’ve had their no way back once in a generation referendum… and lost.
Value Is EverythingIronic that of the Scotland football team the whole of Scotland is rightly so proud of… Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t regard the majority of its team Scottish enough to have a vote in any Scottish referendum.
Scots living outside of Scotland are not allowed a vote.
Value Is EverythingI care about everyone Rob, but especially British/UK.
Many in Scotland thought Sturgeon / the SNP were doing comparatively well with its Covid response. That seems to have changed. Have they taken their eye off the ball again with Indyref2?
We all know how cities (where there are more people per square km) are far more at risk than towns and villages… And it should be the same regarding countries. England should have more cases per km because its average population density is 432 people per square km compared to Scotland’s only 70… And yet England has this week recorded just 94.6 cases of Covid per 100,000 people; far less than Scotland’s 133.7.
Value Is EverythingCountrywide population density figure doesn’t tell the whole story as the majority of Scotland’s population is concentrated in the Central Belt, with around 25% of the total in Edinburgh & Glasgow. Glasgow has highest population density and predictably that area has suffered most. There’s been a zoning of Levels because there are different considerations in different parts of the country, particularly in the Islands where the aim has been to stop too much travel from the mainland to suppress the virus. In the main I think Scotland has been about 3 weeks behind England in terms of infection rates across the period of the pandemic, and I suspect that’s pretty much what’s showing now.
Ultimately Scottish Government has done a pretty decent job, but in the long run it’s a question of how much infection can be lived with and I suspect by necessity they will shadow the UK government measures in the coming weeks, with some regional considerations.
There is a world government operating from the shadows currently though the ‘Covid crisis’ will bring the world government out in the open as nations worldwide revolt when they realise the extent of the lies they have been told.
After a short period of lawlessness the elites will offer the solution of one world government and the people will lap it up.It’s all foretold in the bible and you are living in these times.
As such Scottish government, U.K. government etc is merely pantomime. You are already under control of world government same as everywhere else.
Vote for who you want it’s meaningless.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.