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Scotland had its (as the SNP leader agreed) “once in a generation referendum”… And now Nicola Sturgeon wants another referendum. She’s misled the people of Scotland and Britain in to believing it was a once in a lifetime referendum. She’s now misled the Scottish Parliament (whether intentionally or unintentionally) about her spat with Alex Salmond.
If Nicola gets her way with another referendum, if losing she is she going to want another one and if necessary another and another?
There have been polls that suggest more than 50% of Scotland wants another referendum, therefore Ms Sturgeon wants another. So if winning a referendum and there’s an Independent Scotland… Does that mean she / the SNP Government will grant multiple referendums whenever 50% want another referendum to return to the UK/Britain?
How does business invest in a country where business never know whether it is going to be in Britain / UK or an independent Scotland that might or might not be in the EU?…
…And if in the EU – how does businesses invest in Scotland when not knowing how the boundary between Scotland and the rest of the uk (rUK) will work – remembering that 60% of Scotland’s trade is with rUK?…
Or businesses not knowing how the EU will insist on the border working / not working? Brexit has taught us it is far easier to have a border in the sea rather than on land. Perhaps build / dig a sea along the English, Scottish border?
What is the currency going to be in Scotland?
The EU requires every new country to join the Euro. SNP seems to want to keep the “British Pound” at least for a time until achieving its dream of becoming an EU state. But how long will that take? If leaving the UK why can’t Scotland have their own pound which starts with parity with rUK and then finds its own level? Keeping the “British Pound” means that if Scotland gets in to financial difficulties rUK will have no alternative but to bail Scotland out. (Scotland being too small to reciprocate if rUK got in to difficulty). No alternative because Scotland crashing would bring down the British Pound and therefore brings down rUK. Do the SNP want to be truly independent or not? To look after its own citizens surely RUK will / must never allow an “independent” Scotland to have the British Pound?Of course it should be up to Scotland which route they take, but shouldn’t they know what they’re signing up for?
If Scotland does become Independent will they ever be allowed a vote to return?
rUK will surely need to vote whether to allow them to return?
That’s if there is an rUK left…How did you reply to the 2021 census? Did you describe yourself as British or English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish/Irish?
Do you feel less British now than you used to and why?
I said British in the census, because I regard myself as still more British than English and love all the other parts of the UK. But if Scotland goes its own way that will probably change. imo If Scotland goes then Britain/UK will self destruct. Suspect England as well as Wales will want to go their separate ways. If Northern Ireland’s population continues as it is then they will eventually want to join Ireland.Value Is EverythingPretty clear that this has arisen again as a result of the Brexit referendum. Scotland was told prior to the vote that UK would stay in the EU. So who misled the Scottish people? Scotland voted two thirds against leaving the EU, as big a majority as one might want for anything. This result has been mainly ignored by the Westminster government which has pressed on as if the UK had voted two thirds the other way.
There is a mountian of evidence about who misled the British people in the Brexit referendum.
Sovereignty is a two way street, isn’t it? If it’s O.K. for the UK as an argument for leaving the EU, then it’s O.K. for Scotland to escape from the “unelected bureaucrats” in Westminster imposing their will on the Scottish people. Start with the unelected House of Lords, then carry on with unelected ministers like Lord Frost and a number of other unelected Ministers in the current Conservative Westminster Government.
I think the splitting up of the UK is a bad thing in a world where multiple crises are facing humanity, but it has become an inevitability given the way that the current UK government has handled leaving the EU. Just look at the broken promises to the Scottish and British fishing industry for a start, which was used as a totemic symbol of the need to leave the EU.
All the flag waving by the Conservatives going on now (which has evil connotations for those who know anything about Oswald Mosley and the British National Party) will just make it all so much worse. The SNP will IMHO (as a non Scot, but an admirer of any politician with integrity, such as Sturgeon) sweep the board in the coming elections.
Sturgeon is an irrelevant leader of a local council which is of no concern or relevance to 95% of the UK population and she leads a single issue party which has shown scant regard for democracy.
Ignoring the result of the last Indyref, when her party said it was a once in a generation vote.
Ignoring the result of the EU referendum in which the United Kingdom, which Scotland voted to remain part of, voted to leave the EU. How a particular geographical area of the United Kingdom voted is irrelevant, so how her local council area voted is totally irrelevant. It is no more relevant that how Yorkshire, Wessex or any other random area voted.
Best of all the SNP want an independent Scotland to join the EU – that’s anything but independence – one can see why though because as a failed state it would qualify for massive EU financial bailouts.
There is no logical argument be it political or geographic for Scotland to have its so called independence.
On the other hand there is no political or geographic argument as to why the north of the island of Ireland is part of the UK. Logically the island of Ireland should be a single political entity and country and by the same logic the islands of Great Britain should be a single political entity and country.
The democratic deficit in the uK is becoming untenable. England’s vastly bigger population is dominating the other countries; Scotland has a few Tory MPs, N Ireland none, yet both are ruled by a Tory govt, which with the demise of Labour and the FPP system (which means that 40% of the vote can lead to a 70 seat majority) is likely to be permanent.
Due to demographic changes, N Ireland (where I’m from) will soon have a nationalist majority; before Brexit, we were moving towards a post-nationalist phase with many people seeing the bigger picture and identifying as European, but now I think N Nreland will definitely leave the UK in the next decade.Brexit has re-opened the old wounds, and I don’t think many English people considered the implications for Scotland and N Ireland when they were voting. The degeneration of the UK since the energy and imagination of the London Olympics has been sad to watch.
Point is, Sungold; that at the time of the Scottish referendum the UK was in the EU and there was a sizeable majority in the UK for staying in the EU. ie At the time of the referendum there was thought little chance of the UK leaving the EU… Where as an independent Scotland would have had to join the EU when several EU countries were against them doing so. eg Spain was (possibly still is) against Scotland becoming a new country inside the EU because it would encourage their Nationalists in Catalonia to break away… Therefore at the time of the referendum Scotland had a far greater chance of staying in the EU by voting to remain with the UK than voting to be independent… and all the above was expressed – quite rightly – in the referendum. But there were no guarantees and in politics things change.
When Cameron announced the Scottish Referendum the Yes campaign was way behind, things change and the No vote only just hung on. It was unlikely the UK would vote to leave the EU, things change, leave won the EU referendum. The Scottish leader did not say it was a “once in a generation referendum unless the uk leaves the EU”, he said a “once in a generation referendum”.
Scotland has a population of a similar size to Yorkshire. Scotland’s vote hasn’t been “ignored”, it’s just it can’t dictate what the UK does. If – as the SNP wanted – Scotland would’ve been given a veto on leaving the EU, then effectively each person in the rest of the UK would’ve been given 1 vote, whilst in Scotland each person given over 13 votes. Hardly fair.
There are Scottish lords in Westminster as well as everywhere else. Every government has rightly used Lords as they see their individual qualities.
Fishermen were always going to have to wait a while. Have no doubt British fishermen will get a lot more eventually. At the moment there are not enough British boats to catch all the fish anyway.
What “flag waving by the conservatives”?
Value Is EverythingNorthern Ireland and Scotland were big reasons I voted Remain, befair; couldn’t see any other way than how the Government negotiated. tbh Even the Irish angle of Brexit went better than I expected. DUP imo had a very unrealistic vision of Brexit. I know more people in NI voted to remain than leave, but the fact so many voted to leave surprised me.
Only right Northern Ireland has kept with the UK when the majority of its population want to remain with the UK. But if polls suggest a majority of Northern Ireland’s population wants to join Ireland then only right there should be a referendum. In the same way, if the majority of the UK wants Brexit then Brexit is what it has to be. If Brexit means it’s speeded things up on the Irish Question then so be it.
Value Is EverythingEngland of course has every right to determine its own destiny, just unfortunate that Scotland and N Ireland have been dragged out of the EU against their will. Ironic that after all the efforts of Irish and Scottish nationalism, it will be English nationalism that leads to the demise of the UK.
What Boris Johnson called ‘the Awesome Foursome’ may soon be only ‘the Gruesome Twosome.’It’s not “English nationalism”, befair. England wants the UK to go forward together. How can that be English nationalism? If Scotland and Northern Ireland do not want to stay with us then that’s up to them.
Value Is EverythingNI might not have any official ‘tories’ but they have their de facto clones in the DUP and UUP, although the latter don’t currently have any MPs in Westminster and the former’s influence is declining, thankfully IMO
I’m of the opinion that the longer a Border Poll is denied the NI public, the greater the likelihood it will result in a vote to rejoin the Republic; infact I think it rather more likely than a vote for Scottish independence
I put British in the census though it was a shame there wasn’t a ‘citizen of the world’ option coz that would have been my immediate choice
I’m from a nationalist background, but my only allegiance is to a better future for our young people. I’m old enough to have lived through all the Troubles, and I don’t want to relive them, but Brexit has seriously destabilised N Ireland and re-energised calls for Irish unity.
Ginger, if England wanted ‘the UK to go forward together’ they would have considered our circumstances and our opinion rather than treat us like colonies.Sturgeon did at the time say that the independence vote could be re-looked at if something major changed. Brexit happened. And Scotland voted against it. I give you proof –
Betfair – you have actually underlined the nub of the problem …. you keep referring to Wales, England and Scotland …… why not refer to Wessex, Essex, Yorkshire they are no more or no less relevant? They are all random constructs based on ancient historical boundaries – I accept the north of Ireland is different as per my previous post.
I live in the United Kingdom, I am British – not English, Welsh, Pict or any other fantasy identity people wish to choose. My passport says I’m British, thankfully it also says I’m no longer part of the European Union.
I genuinely cannot understand this ridiculous faux nationalism, the Scots hanging onto some ridiculous Braveheart dream, the English somehow thinking they are superior, the Welsh singing songs and whinging about failing to win a grand slam.
And today we’ve had this stupid announcement that all Government buildings must fly the Union flag and politicians seem unable to appear on TV without a bloody flag behind them – why all this ridiculous, jingoistic, nationalism – a flag is just a piece of cloth with some pattern on it it doesn’t mean a thing to me.
“NI might not have any official ‘tories’ but they have their de facto clones in the DUP and UUP”
The UUP used to take the Conservative whip in the Commons. The DUP was traditionally a more working class unionist party and not close to the Conservatives. Their pact after May’s disastrous election was a cynical marriage of convenience.
The Conservative Party has fielded candidates in Northern Ireland. They have never done particularly well, apart from in North Down and Strangford where they have at least kept their deposits sometimes.
I find it bizarre that the Conservatives once fielded a candidate in West Belfast. I am not sure I would fancy walking down the Falls Road with a blue rosette on!
Agree that NI will leave the union before Scotland does.
Paul, that there is a Scots Nationalist Party which dominates politics in Scotland might give you a clue. And Brexit was passed due to English flag-waving ‘I want my country back’ nationalism, so don’t pretend you weren’t waving it too
How has England not “considered our (your) circumstances and opinion” and treated you “like colonies”, befair? Genuinely like to know. Hope it isn’t your old “nationalist” anglophobia coming out.
Value Is EverythingGinger, did you consider the implications for Scotland or N Ireland during the Brexit referendum?
o don’t pretend you weren’t waving it too
I wasn’t – I never wanted to join the then Common Market in the first place and I voted no in the first referendum.
My objections then (and primarily now) were 100% economic – initially pouring money into the pockets of inefficient farmers (that’s why De Gaulle vetoed the UK joining the Common market because he knew we would veto the CAP which had not been agreed at that point. Subsequently he couldn’t believe it when the treasonist Heath still wanted to join)
Now my objections to the EU now would be 80% economic, yes there were other issues but they were minor compared to the economics.
So please don’t accuse me of flag waving – I don’t have single nationalistic, patriotic, jingoistic bone in my body.
Yes I am British but only because of some fluke of nature I happened to have been spawned on a lump of rock in the eastern Atlantic ocean – that doesn’t mean I owe it any particular blind loyalty. It’s a reasonable place to live, not as good as it use to be and there are better places to live and many more worse places. But I ain’t going to go round waving a flag saying how perfect it is because it’s anything but perfect.
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