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Just for balance, I absolutely love betting on horses, Joncol. Love it matey.
If I could do without sleep, I’d bet the ponies in both hemispheres. Only shallow pockets and a large number of unlucky selections prevent me from embarking on an endless journey of horse race betting throughout the world.
The news that SIS/TurfTV will be broadcasting US Racing in the evenings this winter has filled my day with the most divine joy, Joncol. A feeling of serenity settled on my soul as I heard the news and only your rather moribund scribblings rippled the pool of my tranquility.
I have it written into my will that my ashes be buried by the winning post at Southwell, Joncol, and that my remains be intermingled with an immolated copy of the first edition of the Racing Post and my Guy Harwood-signed photo of Dancing Brave. And a Double Decker.
I tend to take a less pessimistic view of the sport. Sure, rogue elements will always exist where money is up for grabs – but I have every faith in believing that overall, racing in this country is above board.
As for the betting side: I get much less enthused about the every day run of the mill fare on the flat than I do about the bigger races. The better class horses are generally more consistent and I believe that by concentrating on those select few, I tend to have more success in selecting winners.
I bet much more often during the jumps season.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
If you can’t make even a modest profit from this great sport you shouldn’t be anywhere near it anyway, it’s not all that hard tbh. Grow up and strap a pair on imo.
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I have it written into my will that my ashes be buried by the winning post at Southwell, Joncol, and that my remains be intermingled with an immolated copy of the first edition of the Racing Post and my Guy Harwood-signed photo of Dancing Brave. And a Double Decker.
Ah, a touching thought. The only way it might be improved upon, would be if you had a Dancing Brave signed photo of Guy Harwood. Well, in our dreams….
Not when you back Under X Lengths Jose
It’s the chance you take. I backed Over 17.5L tonight at Ballinrobe. The first race was won by a horse that won by half a furlong
. True, you only get 12L for that in flat racing, but there was a 6L winner of the third race, job done.I also backed Over at Beverley and had a 7L winner in the second race. The next four races were won by a combined distnace of about two lengths and I lost. It’s the chance you take whether jockeys are easing down or pushing right out to the line.
The point I’m trying to make is that the distance only matters from the WINNER to the second, and you don’t get ‘non-triers’ (for want of a better word) WINNING. Easing a winner down is part of the game and is acceptable. A horse easing down in sixth or seventh sometimes isn’t acceptable.
Fair enough if that’s how you like to play, OneEye. Personally if someone finds it hard to find the "winners," guessing at how far unknown winners will win by seems utter madness to me, but what would I know about it? Not a lot. I suppose working out the way a race will be run and ground conditions could help.
My point was that if someone has a complete lack of confidence in the sport, then they begin to attack everything. And if a winner were to win by 1 length with bundles in hand to avoid the heftiest handicap rise possible, and the bet lost for that person because they backed "Over say 20 lengths" and it ended up being 19 lengths on the day, well, I think you know where I’m heading.
Yes, I completely know where you’re heading, you’re heading to a place I’ve been many times
I don’t gamble heavily on horses, but because I was brought up on the sport and love to watch it I find betting on things like distances, placepots (sometimes) etc a way of having an interest throughout the meeting without investing heavily.
For me it’s just a bit of fun and very little skill involved whatsoever (as you alluded too). Having said that, knowing that it’s been raining all morning when the bookies have priced the ‘distance betting’ options up on the forecast ‘good to firm’ ground (like at Ayr today) can be an advantage
Its ironic really, the sport that started off the pastime of gambling is now perhaps the worse for value, fairness and many other reasons as you have mentioned.
The one interesting thing about horses racing is if there was no such thing as betfair and all gambling on racing was banned I guarantee you we would see much different races take place.
If you removed betting from any other sport it wouldnt make any bit of difference in terms of what you see on the pitch,court,table etc..
You’d be wrong-the vast majority of American steeplechases are run at non-parimutuel meets. Yet the horses don’t seem to change notably in form when they race at major tracks where betting is allowed. I don’t see "much different races" at Shawan Downs than I do at Saratoga.
If you can’t make even a modest profit from this great sport you shouldn’t be anywhere near it anyway, it’s not all that hard tbh. Grow up and strap a pair on imo.
I agree with this too, I can’t remember the last time I left a racetrack with less money than I came in with, and I usually only win 4 or 5 races on a 10-race card. But then, I never bet more than I can afford to lose!
Tht’s surely the answer: never bet more than you can afford to lose, then you can shrug your shoulders and move on without it ruining your day.
Just enjoy the racing: it’s a fabulous sport to watch and be involved in whether you bet or not.I have it written into my will that my ashes be buried by the winning post at Southwell, Joncol, and that my remains be intermingled with an immolated copy of the first edition of the Racing Post and my Guy Harwood-signed photo of Dancing Brave. And a Double Decker.
Don’t ashes usually get "scattered"?
If so, could you let us know, before you peg out, whether you will be getting scattered stand side or far side, so that we can adjust our views of the likely draw bias accordingly?
I love horse racing, having had shares in a few horses over the years and betting for over40years i still get a great buzz, there will always be corruption where big money is involved you have only to look at banks and goverment and they are supposed to be our leaders,bet within your means and enjoy racing for the great spectacle it is.
I don’t think most participants feel they are cheating as such. I think the core problem is most trainers, owners, jockeys and members of the BHA and other bodies don’t care a fig for punters. Except when they think "Oh my God the levy", and then they seem to only understand an indirect relationship between punters and the levy.
So trainers think it is OK to run a horse on the wrong ground at the wrong distance to bring its handicap mark down. Jockeys think it is OK to start to ease a horse if it is not going to win, and don’t care if they lose 3rd place. Starters think it is OK to change a horses draw from best to worst when it has broken its own stall. BHA think its OK to let on-course bookmakers offer 1/6 odds 3 places in a 20-runner handicap.
We can all add to the list and the common thread is contempt for the punter – and the organization responsible seems to do nothing except employ marketing people to excuse their inaction.
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I don’t think most participants feel they are cheating as such. I think the core problem is most trainers, owners, jockeys and members of the BHA and other bodies don’t care a fig for punters. Except when they think "Oh my God the levy", and then they seem to only understand an indirect relationship between punters and the levy
… [snip]…
We can all add to the list and the common thread is contempt for the punter – and the organization responsible seems to do nothing except employ marketing people to excuse their inaction.
Your extremely clear and just analysis of the relationship between the sport’s professional insiders and the mug punters who are paying for the game seems to me irrefutable.
The question arises, though, as to how far this "contempt" might have some justification.
In the Good Old Days before blanket media coverage (and pictures in betting shops), the only way for punters to be fully involved and informed was to attend the races in person, "giving something back" to the game in the way of gate receipts and refreshments.
Now we have multiple ways of watching and wagering on the races in real time, plus essentially free access to endless repeats and recordings of every race run not just in Britain but also in Ireland. But what has happened to the need to "give something back" for our 24/7 entertainment and amusement?
Instead, we – who may in many cases be paying nothing for our pleasure – jump up and down demanding ever more "accountability", ever more "information", ever more "say" in how the sport is run, and how it is organised.
Is the contempt of the professionals not to a high degree justified? Are commercial broadcasters (Sky, At the Races, RUK) paying enough back into the sport directly from subscriptions as well as spin-off betting levy? Or do media demagogues such as McCririck and Chapman rather agitate the muddy water and raise the level of public discontent?
At the moment, Horse Racing is giving much more than it is receiving from its public: and – unpalatable though this might be to Couch Punters – it is quite right that the owners who pay the piper should also be calling the tune.
The BHA are caught between a rock and a hard place, and one major function of the Marketing Suits is to pacify public opinion without yielding an iota of control. Alas, they are clearly incapable of doing even this, let alone waving magic wands to make everyone happy.
To the mantra
"no taxation without representation"
we need to add another, balancing one:
"no pleasure without payment"
— or, in the words of Pooh Bah, the BHA’s Lord High Everything Else,
"No money, no grovel"
.
At the moment, Horse Racing is giving much more than it is receiving from its public: and – unpalatable though this might be to Couch Punters
Thats akin to the CEO of Waitrose being told 50% of his customers are now shopping at Lidl and him replying "doesnt matter, they were contemptuous chavs anyway."
What sort of way is that to run a business?
…it is quite right that the owners who pay the piper should also be calling the tune.
Paul Dixon tells us…
"We are in a crisis. Racing as we know it cannot continue,"
How did the ROA get to calling it like this? What is the crisis connected to, Pinza?
Couch punters many of whom love the sport as much as any owner or trainer are not demanding anything, merely suggesting a better way forward with our due concerns taken into account. Many of us myself included annually put thousands of pounds directly back into employment in UK racing through subscriptions to form, software and racing related media as well as our levy payments. I’d be more than happy to pay my levy directly to racing if it ever got of its rear-end and offered a decent betting product.
"We have to compete to keep our customers," said Winfried Engelbrecht-Bresges, the director of racing in Hong Kong.
Old hat, Pinza, time to move on.
I have it written into my will that my ashes be buried by the winning post at Southwell
I hope that’s on the turf track Max, it’s hard enough working out which beasts will go on fibresand!
Some punters might not bet anymore because they are not skillfull enough to make a profit. Which is fair enough, good enough reason.
Some punters who aren’t skillfull enough to make a profit; WANT to believe the game is BENT. Because then it is not their OWN fault for backing too many losers.So… they complain at every opportunity.
Of course there is some skulduggery in horse racing, but am convinced it is less than it was; and far less than MUG PUNTERS believe there is.
The game is as straight now as it has ever been. May be it is more difficult to make a profit now than 10 years ago, as there is so much more information available. the average punter knows more than they used to.
Bang on. Those who moan on about horse racing being bent are practically always the people that can’t make it pay on a consistant basis, human nature I suppose there always has to be someone else to blame.
Yes there is a certain amount of corruption there always will be wherever there is money but this game has never been so straight.
If you can’t make it pay Joncol (which I presume is the case) then just do it for fun, if you don’t want to do it at all fine but why come on here blaming corruption we’ve never had it so good integrity wise.
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Many of us myself included annually put thousands of pounds directly back into employment in UK racing through subscriptions to form, software and racing related media as well as our levy payments. I’d be more than happy to pay my levy directly to racing if it ever got of its rear-end and offered a decent betting product.
Of course many punters do give plenty back, and I certainly wouldn’t put somebody like yourself in the "Couch" category.
Nevertheless, I think that too many casual punters somehow believe that Racing "owes" them all the amenities for free, and then wonder why they are on the receiving end of what appears to be (and sometimes is) contempt.
No matter how unpalatable, the truth is that punters are rather in the position of barnacles on the ship’s hull. The arrangement works just fine until the barnacles start clamouring to be allowed into the 1st Class Lounge.
I’m sorry if that sounds like "Old Hat", but personally I can’t see the harm in naming the Elephant in the Room. There can be no "moving on" until this truth is acknowledged. Racing on tap for free is a privilege, not a right, and too many people have forgotten that.
Disagree completely Pinza –
If we are talking seafaring analogies then I’d say punters are less baranacle-like and more akin to the wind that stops the good ship ‘Racing’ from becoming becalmed.
We’re the fuel that serves the boilers, the diesel in the outboard, the Sir Steve Redgrave in the rowing boat.
The great ships would sail on barnacles attached or not. I’m afraid that isn’t the case for racing.
Without punters it all grinds to a halt and we’d be back to monied men and women racing matches for private stakes in farm fields.
Racing will stand or fall, very simply, on its ability to entertain, to provide an absorbing way for people to spend their leisure time and pound.
Racing on tap for free is a privilege, not a right.
It is also a myth. Where is racing "on tap, for free"?
Bookmakers pay a levy in the belief that they can gain that back (and more besides) by luring punters into their shops and parting them from their money. Racecourses charge the public admission. TV charges through the License Fee and through adverts that advertisers wish to place in front of prospective purchasers. People who watch X-Factor or Antiques Roadshow don’t feel guilt for getting such programmes "for free", and nor should they.
The "elephant in the room", as you put it, is that senior figures in racing pretend that they care about punters, whereas they only care that they foot as many of the bills as possible. If people like Paul Roy owned up to this, rather than peddling all sorts of tosh, it might be possible to believe a bit more of what they say otherwise.
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