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It just doesn’t seem to stop. Under both codes the same story every day and too few people seem to care. Every time the same old story afterwards: too young, too inexperienced and those magical three letters written day in and day out. We didn’t have that many breakdowns 10 or 20 years ago. And its not as much the fences or hurdles, rather the ground, the inexperience and horses that are not bred for the job. But not many people seem to turn racing into a quality sport. It is becoming more quantity on a daily basis. Look at the breakdowns properly and you’ll see that its either poor material or much too young horses.
Incredible that people bother so much about the National but nothing at all about the remaining 364 days of the racing calendar. Stop: it’s 361 cause we have about 3-4 racing-free days a year.I hope someone can name me just three single days in the past two months that were incident free.
RL,
I was once of the view that Flat racing should start at three, for younger horses to mature a bit first and be stronger. But my opinion was changed by an equine vet. He’d studied injuries to horses, when, why and how long they took to recover. Found that within reason, the younger a horse is when racing for the the first time, the better. Younger horses recover quicker because they’re growing. And often once they’ve grown out of the injury are less likely to get it later in life. "Store" horses tend to get the same type of injuries, yet because they’re fully grown take a lot more time to recover. With National Hunt Flat horses having many more injuries than 2 year olds. May be part of the reason for that is they’ve had trouble in the past and haven’t been able to see a racecourse before and prone to injury. But the vet thought there was a link to maturity.What does "not bred for the job mean RL? Most horses, even National Hunt sires are bred from flat horses and most National Hunt sires were flat horses…. And it is still the thoroughbred.
Presenting was placed in the Derby.
Value Is EverythingInteresting reply Gingertipster.
I’m sure that it is be helpful to have two year olds in training, no doubt about that. And it isn’t probably wrong to race them, but it is important to give the more chances to mature. You could run them on tracks that are easy to race on, not undulating, downhill or any stiff uphill tracks. Have them run over easier bends and not galloping over paths or other roads crossing a track. Maybe even reduce the size of fields just in order to make sure they have enough room to manouvre without bumping and crossing each other. Just give them the chance to learn without having them run first time out in a Group race.
Look at trainers that do very well with older horses (like Stoute, Cumani or Weld) – they have a rather poor strike with two year olds, but are very good with their mature horses.
"Not bred for the job" can mean various things like fragile horses already running in juvenile hurdles or four year olds against five and six year olds over fences. Also it means that horses that were supposed to achieve a lot on the Flat and were bought at rather astronomical prices are asked to perform under the jumping code. And if you run a horse over the jumps on an Irish "dog track" and it breaks down just because of the turns and undulations then you must clearly admit that it isn’t bred for the job. More likely it’s the trainer who asks the impossible.I do believe that it’s the lighter boned thoroughbred that contributes to the large amounts of bonebreaks. We seem to be getting lots of breakdowns on the flat and between fences these days. Years ago, thoroughbreds were more robust but now it seems that they are probably bred lighter to promote speed in some way.
I have asked the BHA if they have a monitoring programme for accidents and breaking down fatalities, and they do not. They seem to think it is not their problem and passed me on to the TBA. To date I have had no reply from them.This is part of an article that I found regarding Michael Dickinson and his Tapeta surface with a short statement about Vincent O’Brien:
"HISTORICAL EXPERIENCE WITH SURFACES
Michael Dickinson feels he was lucky enough to have been taught about surfaces by the best. His mentors include: Dr. Vincent O’Brien, Ballydoyle, Cashel, County Tipperary, Ireland:
As well as training 40 champions, the Derby winner 6 times, L’Arc de Triomphe 3 times and Breeder’s Cup Mile, Dr. O’Brien had a well deserved reputation for soundness in his horses. There were only two fatalities in 28 years."So if Vincent O’Brien just had two fatalities at home in 28 years, can someone tell what went wrong over the past two decades. Things are supposed to become better and safer.
Remember those Sundays with no racing at all, the months without summer jumping and fewer racing during the week. There was a purpose behind that and racing was of very high quality. Though we had no Frankel or Kauto Star the sport was still very exciting to watch.Are there more fatalities than earlier or is that we are all more of aware of them due to all races televised, websites (such as this), twitter etc? There is talk that fatalities in NH are due to flat breds, this can probably be statistically looked at e.g. what percentage of fatalities are from sires who are not recognised NH sires and dams that were flat bred and is this higher than the percentage of this sort of horse running over jumps.
The answer can perhaps be answered by current trainers and whether they are losing more horses than previously (either on the track, or on the gallops). If they were, it is possible that they would have spoken out by now, given that their livelihood is dependent on having healthy horses.
There are obviously a number of people who contribute to this forum who either work in or closely with yards – do they have an opinion?
The trainers that do well with older horses will not only look to have horses with a suitable pedigree in their yards, but attract owners who are also prepared to patient while still paying the training bills of a 2yr in training.
Have only auction races for two.Anything that cost over the median must wait until they are three.
Inbreeding to american stallions like Native Dancer & Northern Dancer. I saw a pedigree recently with 5 crosses of Northern Dancer. the gene pool is shrinking all the time & if they allow AI we can say goodbye to racing with thoroughbreds all together as the popular stallions will be further monopolised. The 40 books were there for a purpose to keep the breed strong & stable. Greed is a terrible thing.
Inbreeding to american stallions like Native Dancer & Northern Dancer. I saw a pedigree recently with 5 crosses of Northern Dancer. the gene pool is shrinking all the time & if they allow AI we can say goodbye to racing with thoroughbreds all together as the popular stallions will be further monopolised. The 40 books were there for a purpose to keep the breed strong & stable. Greed is a terrible thing.
Most of the fault in narrowing the gene pool lies in European breeders sticking to the Danehill/Sadler’s Wells cross and not thinking outside of the box. The A.P. Indy (Bold Reasoning) line doesn’t seem to have caught on so much outside the Americas, which is unfortunate.
I do believe that it’s the lighter boned thoroughbred that contributes to the large amounts of bonebreaks. We seem to be getting lots of breakdowns on the flat and between fences these days. Years ago, thoroughbreds were more robust but now it seems that they are probably bred lighter to promote speed in some way.
I have asked the BHA if they have a monitoring programme for accidents and breaking down fatalities, and they do not. They seem to think it is not their problem and passed me on to the TBA. To date I have had no reply from them.I know we’ve had this discussion several (too many
) times recently on the Memorial section, and I really think there is no getting away from the fact that generations of breeding back to the same lines is starting to produce weaknesses. And not just bones – are we getting more heart failures too?As you said Reetlass, look at Grand Nat winners of 50 years ago and they were a totally different stamp of horse to most of today’s GN runners. I think the rot started with Red Rum – flat bred but not a great success, not huge, fairly lightly made, our GN wonder horse was an amazing exception, but maybe led to more owners of mediocre flat horses trying their luck over fences in the hope of finding another Rummy.
Interesting reply Gingertipster.
I’m sure that it is be helpful to have two year olds in training, no doubt about that. And it isn’t probably wrong to race them, but it is important to give the more chances to mature.That’s just it RL, the vet’s evidence suggested leaving horses to "mature" created
more
problems than it solved.
Value Is EverythingYou could run them on tracks that are easy to race on, not undulating, downhill or any stiff uphill tracks. Have them run over easier bends and not galloping over paths or other roads crossing a track. Maybe even reduce the size of fields just in order to make sure they have enough room to manouvre without bumping and crossing each other. Just give them the chance to learn without having them run first time out in a Group race.
How often do two year olds run first time out in a Group race? Very rarely.
If you restrict two year old races to smaller fields and only certain types of course, then there won’t be enough two year old races to go around. They’d be uncompetitive races that wouldn’t bring in much levy. It wouldn’t teach the horses much either. They’ve got to get used to racing amongst horses for later life, otherwise those problems will just happen in later life. What do you suggest, disqualifying any jockey getting within a foot (30cm) of another horse? The rules are already there to help protect any horse, not only two year olds.
Value Is EverythingLook at trainers that do very well with older horses (like Stoute, Cumani or Weld) – they have a rather poor strike with two year olds, but are very good with their mature horses.
There are all sorts of horses. Stoute and Cumani (don’t know enough about Weld) specialise in bigger, late maturing types who are always going to make better 3 and 4 year olds. Smaller, sharper types, like the Hannons and Channons tend to purchase usually mature earlier; so need to run earlier. ie Not all two year olds have the potential of those Stoute and Cumani animals. So keeping all horses for a later career is not a good idea.
Value Is EverythingThere are many inexactitudes relating to the breeding of racehorses. If the results could be guaranteed then all that would be left would be the breeders with the most money.
However breeders have made and lost their operations on the success and failure of their ideas. The current vogue, especially for NH breeders/owners is speed. I believe this is a fundamental flaw because it has resulted in too many horses that are not "designed" to jump obstacles being asked to do so. Also the sheer volume of horses in training and improved understanding of how to treat equine injuries means that there are also more horses being asked to run in races that their natural physiology denies them a reasonable chance to survive the rigours of sustained training.
Whether in times past, such horses were simply dispatched to the abattoir unless a benevolent home was found for them, or there were simply less horses and less racing which resulted in less incidents, there is a feeling that human greed on one hand and human compassion on the other have intensified the question of the morality of breeding and racing the horse for entertainment."Not bred for the job" can mean various things like fragile horses already running in juvenile hurdles or four year olds against five and six year olds over fences.
"National Hunt" bred sires are (with few exceptions) horses that ran on the flat. There are even National Hunt stallions by Saddlers Wells. The breeding is no different than "Flat bred" middle-distance/stayers. Bones of so called Flat bred thoroughbreds are no different to the bones of "National Hunt" bred. No difference in fagility. In fact, those who’ve raced on the flat are often sounder animals. It seems to me some horses you believe are "national Hunt bred" are just horses who would’ve raced on the flat, had it not been for injury. It is only the out and out stayers (by a stayer out of a stayer) who don’t run on the flat, and a lot of them come from "flat" lines.
Value Is EverythingAlso it means that horses that were supposed to achieve a lot on the Flat and were bought at rather astronomical prices are asked to perform under the jumping code. And if you run a horse over the jumps on an Irish "dog track" and it breaks down just because of the turns and undulations then you must clearly admit that it isn’t bred for the job. More likely it’s the trainer who asks the impossible.
That’s nothing to do with how it’s "bred".
When running around a "Dog track" it is much safer to run a horse who’s proven its soundness on the flat… Than it is running something thought of as "National Hunt bred" who actually hasn’t run before/much purely due to injury. As I said in my first post on this thread, I was told National Hunt Flat (bumpers) have a disproportionate amount of injuries/fatalities.
If courses are as dangerous as you say RL, it is an arguement for closing tracks or banning National Hunt racing FULL STOP.
Value Is EverythingOnly thing that may have increased fatalities/injuries over the years is inbreeding. Seems to be more close inbreeding these days and breeders not so worried about ironing out problems. ie Breeders used to send a mare with bad legs (eg tendon trouble) to a sire known to have good legs, in the hope of producing a foal with good legs. However, I talked to a man quite high up in the Godolphin breeding oporation who said it was a thing of the past.
I mentioned in TAPK’s tipping thread, I hoped Parish Hall would not win the Derby, because it would’ve encouraged inbreeding. Done generations apart inbreeding is acceptable. But both the sire’s sire and dam’s sire are by sons of Saddlers Wells. With Northern Dancer in all four corners of the pedigree.
Not long after my post Parish Hall got an injury which may or may not have had anything to do with being inbred (I believe it’s called) 3×3 to Saddlers Wells.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/parish+hall2
Value Is Everything
) times recently on the Memorial section, and I really think there is no getting away from the fact that generations of breeding back to the same lines is starting to produce weaknesses. And not just bones – are we getting more heart failures too?
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