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On Epsom derby running and off – lets call it for arguments sake – a medium pace overall, surely Masterofthehorse has the most obvious chance here, no?
Well said that man, look where Hughsey came from,he tried to do a Dancing Brave and was finishing very strongly,i will back him to beat Sea the Stars at the Curragh! As for Gan Amrhas not staying,how can you evaluate that from the Derby "Red riot"? as he never went a yard,i wont give up on him either! Rip Van,i still cant work out why Johnny thinks this is one of the best he has ridden!
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Rip Van,i still cant work out why Johnny thinks this is one of the best he has ridden!
Maybe it’s something to do with, that over the years, the horse Coolmore most want to promote has always been "One of the best I’ve ever ridden", whomever the stable jockey at the time?
Gan Amhras shouldn’t even turn up for this, he will be better suited to 1m2f or even 1m races, I can see him being aimed at The Sussex Stakes as a G1 for him and maybe a crack at the Eclipse. There are too many good horses for him at 1m4f.
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You took the word right out of my mouth with regards to Gan Ahmras. He never settled at any point and obviously burned himslef out. Watching the race again the horse was gone before Tattenham corner.
No matter what Heffenan says about riding him differently he said prior to the race the horse travels well at any pace. That proved to be the case here and he got 1st run on both RVW and Masterofthehorse. H must have been about 3 lengths on both of them and hung on by a neck and both having made up a lot of ground on him.
I could understand you backing him to beat Fame and Glory as he looked the better horse in the finish. He was sticking his head out and racing whereas Fame and Glory was spent and going nowhere fast. But to back him to beat Sea the Stars? Lets try and be a bit more realistic….his only chance is surely if StS doesn’t run.
Taking it StS misses the race I think what Heffenan said about Fame and Glory travelling well at any pace could be a very important factor here. As Red pointed out Fame and Glory has proved he can go on soft ground, which is the only reason StS wont run. Masterofthehorse has no form on soft ground and that could go dead against him.
Another minus was Chester. A fast pace saw him run out of time and if the Irish Derby is run at a fast pace his Derby form might fly out the window.
The other way of looking at it is he has improved a lot from Chester and this course could suit him a lot better than there or Epsom for that matter where the last 4 furlongs were anything but slow
I think it’s all down to whether he goes on soft ground or not and if he does he certainly has the beating of Fame and Glory and wont have to worry about Sea the Stars.
The 6/1 could be worth the gamble as you can always do a straight forecast on the day StS to beat Masterofthehorse which would more than cover your bet. My feeling is if Heffernan tries to force the pace and the ground is good he will play right into the hands of both StS and Masterofthehorse who should find the course much more to his liking.
He would simply rob the horse of his best weapon whuch is to drop him in and relax not go galloping into the sunset like he’s Destert Orchid.
I don’t think you really understand that Fame And Glory is a galloper.
Take his Group 1 win last year, a race that was really slow, and when he got in front he looked like a sitting duck for everything behind him but he just beat them by galloping them out the race using his power,
Even if he looked flat out he would of kept on going on, which is something you should take into consideration and I don’t think you are, Rip Van Winkle almost stopped when he joined the group, although Masterofthehorse was the one who could have pipped him , but if they can’t beat him at Epsom there not going to beat him at The Curragh where a super fast pace is certainly what brings the best out of him as The Derrinstown Trial clearly shows.
Conduit would be an example of a horse that runs like Fame And Glory, slow paced races can catch him out, he almost got beat by Donegal, horses like these two like a fast pace to come off otherwise they just get caught flat footed and need their strength and guts to pull them through.
Still if Sea The Stars lines up he’ll probably still do out do him for speed if their is a fast pace or not. Fame And Glory won’t force the pace though, its going to be pacemaker city, I expect Liszt to run and probably Hail Caesar to set a really fast pace.
When I speak of "team" Ballydoyle I am referring to O’Brien,Magnier,Tabor and Smith. When this thread speaks of "team" Ballydoyle they seem to refer to O’Brian and his jockeys. No trainer can use team tactics which we seem to be alluding to here.
Does this mean we support such tactics or do we condemn them?
I don’t believe that Aidan supports such illegal tactics and would never do so. He may run a pace maker and give individual jockeys riding instructions;even do so in a group as he did at Epsom but what is he do do with six or seven runners? How long would it take to do so individually in the ring? So lets stop the talk of Aidan getting his " tactics" wrong .That is talking of a crime in racing.- Total Posts 17716
I don’t think you really understand that Fame And Glory is a galloper.
Take his Group 1 win last year, a race that was really slow, and when he got in front he looked like a sitting duck for everything behind him but he just beat them by galloping them out the race using his power,
Even if he looked flat out he would of kept on going on, which is something you should take into consideration and I don’t think you are, Rip Van Winkle almost stopped when he joined the group, although Masterofthehorse was the one who could have pipped him , but if they can’t beat him at Epsom there not going to beat him at The Curragh where a super fast pace is certainly what brings the best out of him as The Derrinstown Trial clearly shows.
Conduit would be an example of a horse that runs like Fame And Glory, slow paced races can catch him out, he almost got beat by Donegal, horses like these two like a fast pace to come off otherwise they just get caught flat footed and need their strength and guts to pull them through.
Still if Sea The Stars lines up he’ll probably still do out do him for speed if their is a fast pace or not. Fame And Glory won’t force the pace though, its going to be pacemaker city, I expect Liszt to run and probably Hail Caesar to set a really fast pace.
He’s a galloper? a horse with a high cruising speed who comes is normally held up and of the pace with a turn of foot usualy about 1f to 2f from home.
I think you read that about him when he beat Drumbeat and failed to quicken and got the wrong end of the stick.
He’s a bit one paced as we saw in the Derby but he’s anything but a galloper. That term is usually reserved for horses like Denman who take it up a long way from home.
I sincerely thnk AOB will allow him to try and gallop anything into the ground in the Irish Derby. They’ll use a pacemaker to set a strongish gallop and he will run his normal race.
He wouldn’t take Sea the Stars of the bridle if he tried to go for home 5 or 6f out and would be lucky to last home.
Well this is gone past debating for me, only thing I can say is that come time I think I will be right on him and you will be wrong.
Don’t think you can compare jumps with flat horses.
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WTF are you talking about prove me wrong about what?
Stuff the jumps then Golden Sword is what is referred to as a galloper.
Example from the racing post: Golden Sword on the other hand looks a stayer and a galloper. He saw the race out far more strongly than Age Of Aquarius, who had kept him company most fo the way, and it was only well inside the final furlong that he lost second. He looks an obvious St Leger type
Describing Fame and Glory as "a galloper" is something no educated racing person would do.
A lovely galloper and a galloper are terms used by racing people but they have different meanings. The former implies he travells well the second implies he gallops others into the ground or attempts to.
Fame and Glory is a nice horse but as we seen in the Derby he’s beatable.
you say the pace never suited him in the Derby yet he settled a lot better than Sea the Stars did. He come with a good run but as I suspected he lacks that turn of foot of great horses.
You seem oblivious to the facts here. Sea the Stars ran away from him and Masterofthehorse and Rip Van Winkle gained 2-3 lengths on him in the final furlong.
He may well win the Irish Derby if the ground is soft and Sea the Stars doesn’t run but he isn’t the horse you said he ws before the Derby and you should face up to that and stop your childish behaviour when you mess up.
Your basking in self glory after your posts in the Derrinstown Trial thread.
You love to point out things you think you were right about and try to use some sort of mocking when I challenge you back.
The race didn’t suit Fame And Glory and I think I will be proved right in time, whats wrong with saying that, I don’t think you have seen enough of Fame And Glory to come to an opinion of what your making and I believe your wrong.
I think I can challenge your opinion if I so wish so don’t get hysterical if some one does.
I didnt really want to go on in the debate cause it was getting out of hand yet you still push things, so I won’t be commenting on this again.
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I can’t believe you just called someone else childish, Fist
Sea The Stars’s participation is very much ground dependent – John Oxx won’t run him for the sake of running him if the ground is on the soft side. It follows then that if he runs, he (almost certainly) wins. It also follows that if he doesn’t run Fame And Glory will be in prime position to capitalise, though at a similarly short price.
Either way it’s a no-bet contest.
If only racing was as simple as you!
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I backed Tartan Bearer 9 days ago with a view to backing him again but now I’m not so sure what to do…why?
Quote from Ken Pitterson, the well respected paddock observer, in this week’s Weekender on Fame and Glory:
This scopey son of Montjeu looked a serious threat with two furlongs to go, but he lacked a change of pace compared to the winner and just hung on to second place. The long term plan should be the St Leger as he looks a pure galloper top me
I backed Tartan Bearer 9 days ago with a view to backing him again but now I’m not so sure what to do…why?
This thread is about this years Irish Derby, Tartan Bearer ran in last years!
i bet you got a good price!! Now put that bottle down!- Total Posts 17716
Quote from Ken Pitterson, the well respected paddock observer, in this week’s Weekender on Fame and Glory:
This scopey son of Montjeu looked a serious threat with two furlongs to go, but he lacked a change of pace compared to the winner and just hung on to second place. The long term plan should be the St Leger as he looks a pure galloper top me
The St Leger? I bet you anything you like he doesn’t run………wouldn’t get the trip in a bus
Quote from Ken Pitterson, the well respected paddock observer, in this week’s Weekender on Fame and Glory:
This scopey son of Montjeu looked a serious threat with two furlongs to go, but he lacked a change of pace compared to the winner and just hung on to second place. The long term plan should be the St Leger as he looks a pure galloper top me
The St Leger? I bet you anything you like he doesn’t run………wouldn’t get the trip in a bus
Ladbrokes make him their 6/1fav, but what do they know!!!!!! and he would get the trip without catching the number 22 to Kirk sandall!
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