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Should be a great meeting,all booked and quite a few of us going,would love to meet up with Eclipse First and Superman to discuss the Black Caviar doping thing they have going!Ah sorry forgot,that takes balls! But let us know boys and we can catch up!
Frankel was awesome on Saturday, probably the best miler ever.
BUT to be a great horse you have to win the GREAT races. The Derby, the King George, The Arc, the American Triple Crown.
He has nothing left to prove at a mile and should be moved up in trip right now.What defines a race is the quality of horses running in it, not the it’s previous history. The King George certanly isn’t competitive every year whilst the Derby has good renewals and bad renewals.
The idea that Frankel cannot be considered an all time great because he isn’t as versatile, or tried over a variety of trips is absolute nonsense. Unless we also think Usain Bolt and Bekele are of course not all time greats?
Talents are not ranked on versality. They are ranked on peak ability, and the performances they produce within the competition/field they run against. Frankel has proven he’s one of the bets milers we’ve ever seen. Thus surely, he is one of the best horses we have ever seen?
Sea the Stars has nowehere near the calibre of form Frankel has shown. Of course peoplewill trot out the versatility argument ; an argument that is fundamentally flawed
Frankel was awesome on Saturday, probably the best miler ever.
BUT to be a great horse you have to win the GREAT races. The Derby, the King George, The Arc, the American Triple Crown.
He has nothing left to prove at a mile and should be moved up in trip right now.What defines a race is the quality of horses running in it, not the it’s previous history. The King George certanly isn’t competitive every year whilst the Derby has good renewals and bad renewals. Clearly you do not understand what great means, or how great races are defined as great. Wouldn’t call the 2005 Derby a great race, would you?
The idea that Frankel cannot be considered an all time great because he isn’t as versatile, or tried over a variety of trips is absolute nonsense. Unless we also think Usain Bolt and Bekele are of course not all time greats?
Talents are not ranked on versality. They are ranked on peak ability, and the performances they produce within the competition/field they run against. Frankel has proven he’s one of the bets milers we’ve ever seen. Thus surely, he is one of the best horses we have ever seen?
Sea the Stars has nowehere near the calibre of form Frankel has shown. Of course peoplewill trot out the versatility argument ; an argument that is fundamentally flawed
Frankel was awesome on Saturday, probably the best miler ever.
BUT to be a great horse you have to win the GREAT races. The Derby, the King George, The Arc, the American Triple Crown.
He has nothing left to prove at a mile and should be moved up in trip right now.What defines a race is the quality of horses running in it, not the it’s previous history. The King George certanly isn’t competitive every year whilst the Derby has good renewals and bad renewals.
The idea that Frankel cannot be considered an all time great because he isn’t as versatile, or tried over a variety of trips is absolute nonsense. Unless we also think Usain Bolt and Bekele are of course not all time greats?
Talents are not ranked on versality. They are ranked on peak ability, and the performances they produce within the competition/field they run against. Frankel has proven he’s one of the bets milers we’ve ever seen. Thus surely, he is one of the best horses we have ever seen?
Sea the Stars has nowehere near the calibre of form Frankel has shown. Of course peoplewill trot out the versatility argument ; an argument that is fundamentally flawed
Bolt and Bekele have won world championships at two separate distances and both currently hold the World records at those distances. Michael Johnson & Carl Lewis won at different distances and in Lewis’ case he held world records in Long Jump, which is a completely different discipline.
Maybe Ed Moses would be a more appropriate analogy?
Frankel was awesome on Saturday, probably the best miler ever.
BUT to be a great horse you have to win the GREAT races. The Derby, the King George, The Arc, the American Triple Crown.
He has nothing left to prove at a mile and should be moved up in trip right now.What defines a race is the quality of horses running in it, not the it’s previous history. The King George certanly isn’t competitive every year whilst the Derby has good renewals and bad renewals.
The idea that Frankel cannot be considered an all time great because he isn’t as versatile, or tried over a variety of trips is absolute nonsense. Unless we also think Usain Bolt and Bekele are of course not all time greats?
Talents are not ranked on versality. They are ranked on peak ability, and the performances they produce within the competition/field they run against. Frankel has proven he’s one of the bets milers we’ve ever seen. Thus surely, he is one of the best horses we have ever seen?
Sea the Stars has nowehere near the calibre of form Frankel has shown. Of course peoplewill trot out the versatility argument ; an argument that is fundamentally flawed
Bolt and Bekele have won world championships at two separate distances and both currently hold the World records at those distances. Michael Johnson & Carl Lewis won at different distances and in Lewis’ case he held world records in Long Jump, which is a completely different discipline.
Maybe Ed Moses would be a more appropriate analogy?
Two seperate distances that are both classed as being within the same category ; Sprinting and Long distancing running.
So what is your point?
Should be a great meeting,all booked and quite a few of us going,would love to meet up with Eclipse First and Superman to discuss the Black Caviar doping thing they have going!Ah sorry forgot,that takes balls! But let us know boys and we can catch up!
I’m not quite sure on how many levels that is wrong, but I cannot recall ever suggesting that Black Caviar had been doped. Perhaps you could enlighten me?
Frankel has been put up to 138 on the World Thoroughbred Ranking(WTR). This is the highest rating ever given since the US horses were added in the WTR in 1996?
That’s the best horse to have races over ANY distance ANYWHERE in the world in 16 years.
I think that’s a close to being great as you can get.
That winning over two different distances demonstrates versatility.
All you did was describe versality within a division. Winning at 5 furlongs and 6 furlongs being a racing equivalent.
Versatility has absolutely no influence over peak ability. The rating of a horse, and it’s bets piece of form and how that translates historically does not depend on a horses ability to race over a variety of trips. Brigadier Gerard isn’t considering one of the best horses of all time because he won a King George over a distance unsuitable for him, he’s rated such because his form over his traditional trip was outstanding.
To all those questioning Sea The Stars form:
HGM argued during the NH season that had Hurricane Fly something better to aim at than Peddlers Cross at the the 2011 Cheltenham Festival, he would have beaten that horse by more.
That is exactly the scenario with Sea The Stars. All through his career, Mick Kinaane maintained he idled when he hit the front. In the Juddmonte, Kinanae rushed him through the Ballydoyle pacemakers after Mastercraftsman, but the horse responded so well that he had to take a pull. Sea The Stars seemed to go asleep after that, needing a couple of wake up calls before winnign readily. In my opinion if there had been another horse four or five lengths ahead of Mastercraftsman, he would have won in more visibly impressive fashion.
This was the case in the Irish Champion Stakes, as, with a different horse to aim at, Mastercraftsman couldn’t get near him as he hosed up. I remember in the post race interview on track Kinane actually found it quite humorous that he pulled a couple of lengths clear of his rivals.
In the Arc, he put the race to bed in a matter of strides. So what if Youmzain finished fast, no great surprise there now is there. As soon as Kinane got after him the race was over as a contest. Just because he had to be shaken up at times doesn not mean he had any less ability, it just means he was almost horizontally laid-back.
This post is by no means a ‘Sea The Stars is better than Frankel’ post or vice versa, simply a defence of a really special horse.
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Good post, thehorsesmouth, but one fundamental rule of race rating must be applied: no allowance should be made for ease of victory. A horse’s rating must represent the form as it stands and there shouldnt be any guesswork or conjecture involved. Nothing in Sea The Stars’ record justifies a rating much higher than 134. That’s not to say that he couldn’t have run to 140 had he needed to do so, of course.
Frankel, in my opinion, hasn’t run to more than 137 but I have no doubt that he’s capable of a significantly higher figure, given the ease of his victory on Saturday. However, I’m not going to guess and rate him at 150 because he could have won by ten lengths.
In the Arc, he put the race to bed in a matter of strides. So what if Youmzain finished fast, no great surprise there now is there. As soon as Kinane got after him the race was over as a contest.
Sea The Stars’ win was very tenacious considering he had to get through a passage as straight as a dog’s back leg. However, the two pace setters were weakening very rapidly just as he accelerated which, IMO, kinda made his ‘burst of speed’ look a bit better than it was.
People should not (imo) judge Sea The Stars on the Arc. On "form" you can’t rate Sea The Stars Arc any better than Zarkava (allowing for the sex allowance) who beat Youmzain by the same margin. Eclipse and Irish Champion were better performances on form. Unfortunately, those two races are seen as less glamorous. Sea The Stars didn’t need to run to form to win well in the Arc; though still did well. The "below form" win probably due to coming from a poor position. From reports, Sea The Stars had gone in his coat, if he was "over the top" this could be why he didn’t go on to the Breeders Cup.
Value Is EverythingJollyp gets a bit unstable if anyone says anything about Black Caviar. I was about to tell him i can’t meet him and his hard man friends to discuss the horse because someone has already arranged for me to fight Peter Moody on the same card. I suddenly realised it was him who arranged the Ascot showdown between me and Moody. Do you think if i make insulting remarks about big Marilyn from Home & Away that he would rage and perhaps arrange me to meet her to tell her to her face what i think about Alfs banana
"Big Marilyn"??
Number one, she’s well tidy. Number two, Don Fisher would beat old Jolly to the punch! Ripper!
Jollyp gets a bit unstable if anyone says anything about Black Caviar. I was about to tell him i can’t meet him and his hard man friends to discuss the horse because someone has already arranged for me to fight Peter Moody on the same card. I suddenly realised it was him who arranged the Ascot showdown between me and Moody. Do you think if i make insulting remarks about big Marilyn from Home & Away that he would rage and perhaps arrange me to meet her to tell her to her face what i think about Alfs banana
I think big Marilyn would flog you superman!,and i think you would know where Alf’s (STREWTH) banana would end up!
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