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But back to the topic: Black Caviar really hasn’t done herself any favors by sticking to Australia for so long. At 21-for-21 the only horse above her is Kincsem, yet she doesn’t seem to garner as much attention as Zenyatta did. And it’s not like Zenyatta was facing world-class competition every race, but at least she showed up in the Breeders Cup three years running. Even going to Ascot I’m not sure how much she proves.
PLEASE!!!
(a) It’s not Black Caviar’s decision where she races.
(b)Not as much attention as Zenyatta?? Maybe in the US "fishbowl" she doesn’t, everywhere else that knows & cares about racing outside their own country gives her far more attention than Z.
(c) Breeders Cups you say – she never had to travel, She did beat a World class field in the Classic, She lost against an average field the year after (yes, butchered by the jockey) & she beat fillies & mares the first time. The BC aint be all & end all of race meetings.
(d) Let’s look at their records…Zenyatta raced 20 times for 19-1-0 (should have been 20-0-0).
All bar 2 of those races were aginst her own sex!!
1 x G1 Open
12 x G1’s F&M
4 x G2’s F&MBlack Caviar 21-0-0
11 x G1 Open
1 x G1 F&M
6 x G2 Open
1 x G2 3yo OpenI’m sorry, Zenyatta was a great champion but she doesn’t hold a candle to Black Caviar.
I agree re the decision to go to the UK though, nothing to gain bar showing the English how good she is first hand. I think that it’s more about the owners than the horse which is a shame. She shopuld have gone to Dubai, Japan & Hong Kong.
If it was a popularity competition Zenyatta would have won by a mile..I doubt if there has been a more popular horse worldwide ever. She won the Vreeders in the US of A which means more than winning 10 Aussie sprints.whether she is better than Zenyatta means nothing if she does it in Australia
Winning race in Australia is like winning flapping races to the average UK punter….like the Melbourne cup is a non event as far as the upper crust Brits are concerned.
I don’t mean to offend but it is just a handicap and it doesn’t produce champions……..although champions like Phar Lap have won it…….only way they will ever get world recognition for te race which incidentally they admit to want is to chance it to a proper Group 1 race not try to buy one by offering silly prize money.
Sure Back Caviar is recognized as a brilliant mare but for her to really stamp her authority on the breeders she has got to come to the UK and advertise her wares and murder the Europeans and make them sit up and accept she really might be the best sprinter of all time……..smack em right between the eyes is the only way because you could win 30 races in Australia and still have doubters.
She slaughters them at Ascot and no one will deny her her rightful place then the fun can begin………challenge Frankel……not that it will happen but Frankel ran away would be good for her resume and the history books
Marbine,can you see the irony of what you are saying about Black Caviar?Has Frankel done himself any favors by staying in England and refusing to run beyond a mile? If he is as good as they say he should be proving it in world competition since the middle of last yuear.Instead Henry runs him in his own back yard and lays down a challenge to all and sundry.Come here and fight in my ring with my judges and my ref.Cotton balls and window dressing and all the rest to prove he cannot be beaten.Sorry but I don’t buy the sizzle; I would like to taste the steak.
The highest rated British trained horse of all time, Brigadier Gerard ( a horse Pat Eddery recently called " a machine " ) never raced outside of England.
That’s because we have the best racing in the world. Any Sir Henry has not refused to race him at only a mile the plan is to step him up in trip when he is ready. Only a fool would have run him over 10f last season he was way too excitable. Utter nonsense to say Sir Henry is backing down or refusing he’s one of the gamest trainers in the game. Horse like Twice Over and Midday with another trainer would never have raced at 4years old or went globetrotting
HGM if the "average UK punter" doesnt rate winning a race in Australia then it’s not worth a substantial reply. Those that have a clue can see how good she is. Dont be fooled by the media & think that the Melbourne Cup is rated as Australia’s best quality race. we know it’s a handicap etc.
Scenic Blast’s rating went up by winning the Kings Stand &it wasnt even the best field he had faced; this shows either bias or ignorance on part of the raters. Also I doubt her connections give a toss re the UK breeders, why would they?
As for Breeders Cup, most over rated meeting in the world. How many genuine A graders have Europe sent over? IMO this year’s Lightning Stakes is one of the highest ratwd races you find anywhere in the world tbus year but alas it’s only an Aussie race
Also, himself, it was the Hong Kong mile, not Singapore.For a start,Black Caviar has beaten opposition every bit as good as Frankel.Otherwise Hay List would have been the best sprinter in the world.Some people cant read!She carried 58kg,giving away up to 7kg in the Group 1 Newmarket and ran the 1200m in 1min 7.3 sec! In the TJ SMITH in a field of 11 there were 9 Group 1 winners,people who say she stays in her own back yard,guess what she is a mare not a stallion and when you can pick off $1 million races here why wouldnt you? A top trainer here said the other day that he clocked her in work at Caulfield over 400m saying 22 seconds was extremely good work Black Caviar ran 20.7 seconds!!! Thats how good she is and she has a profile 10 fold of what Zenyatta has! 11 Group 1"s against all comers.
"The idea of a racecourse gallop was to get the adrenaline going. It was like having a very easy race and the main thing was to get him to settle," said Cecil.Sporting Life 5/15/2012.
I don’t know about you but I am tired listening to Henry peddlin this crap, the horses is now 4 for goodness sake.Then he goes on to make excuses for the gallop not beingg fast enough.Maybe he should give him over to another trainer or get stable lads who kmow how to time their quarters.Pathetic!Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Mine is Black Caviar is an exceptional horse.
Sprinting (despite recent breeders preference for speed) , at the top class level (in England), is little above handicap level.
B.C. should blow away a sub standard crop over here.
That said, again in my opinion, she has a way to go before she is compared to Zenyatta.
A match with Frankel is a mis match, as, if he has trained on and is healthy, he will due to his speed and class beat B.C. over a mile easily, and probably down to as far as 6 furlongsEveryone is entitled to their opinion.
Mine is Black Caviar is an exceptional horse.
Sprinting (despite recent breeders preference for speed) , at the top class level (in England), is little above handicap level.
B.C. should blow away a sub standard crop over here.
That said, again in my opinion, she has a way to go before she is compared to Zenyatta.
A match with Frankel is a mis match, as, if he has trained on and is healthy, he will due to his speed and class beat B.C. over a mile easily, and probably down to as far as 6 furlongsYou are kidding! A way to go before she reaches Zenyatta!!Read the form!!! And Frankel beat her at 6f!! He wouldnt see which way she went over 6 furlongs ,now that would be a real mismatch.Now 11 Group 1 wins by a sprinter in Handicap,wfa and againt the males giving them weight in the best sprinting nation in the world!And she has won 2 more Group 1’s then Frankel has had starts, 9 from 9 is impressive, 21 from 21 and 11 Group 1 wins is unheard of!
Irishracing.com posted a more informed article yesterday and explains what many know already in that Timeform have a record of consistently over-rating horses due to their flawed one dimensional methodologies:
"Figuring Out Frankel
14 May 2012, 10:43:36 | Brian O’Connor
If you’re going to be a hostage to fortune then it’s best to get the manacles on good and tight so here goes – is Frankel the most overrated horse in ages? And will wiping the floor with Excelebration again in this weekend’s Lockinge prove anything different?Suggesting this isn’t some contrarian attempt to stir things up, or get up the noses of the more feverish Frankel fans that appear to include Timeform.
They reckon only three horses in the last seventy years have been better than the Juddmonte star and are already anticipating having to redefine their ratings parameters to gauge Frankel’s abilities by the end of his four year old career.
Quibbling with that doesn’t mean this corner doesn’t recognise Frankel as a genuinely great horse. He is. At a mile he is spectacular and who knows what will happen when and if he steps up to ten furlongs.
But it is important to remember that Frankel’s flamboyant style of racing is catnip for handicappers. It is always easier to get a handle on a horse that shows you what he’s got and that’s what Frankel does. Parsing the intricacies of ability into hard and fast figures is a helluva lot harder with a horse like Sea The Stars who never even came close to revealing the limits of his talent.
In many respects Frankel is an aberration in European terms, racing as he does in a more American dirt fashion, striking out early and using that magnificent stride to full effect. And horses that can pull that off are capable of producing stunning figures.
The Lockinge provided an example nine years ago when Hawk Wing ran away with the race from the front and posted handicap figures that theoretically still make him the best horse Aidan O’Brien has ever trained. Anyone else believe Hawk Wing to be the best the champion trainer has had through his hands?
Anyway, it doesn’t do to get too carried away with handicap ratings. Anyone know the highest rated Irish trained horse with Timeform? It’s Windy City, a two year old from decades ago whose 142 is the same as Frankel’s. Think he was overrated? Oh yeah."
Anyway, it doesn’t do to get too carried away with handicap ratings. Anyone know the highest rated Irish trained horse with Timeform? It’s Windy City, a two year old from decades ago whose 142 is the same as Frankel’s. Think he was overrated? Oh yeah."
Frankel is 143 Robert.
Value Is EverythingThats the good thing about Black Caviar,she can lead or settle last,and does anyone know of the last time ever,or in the modern era when a horse has won 7’f’ Group 1 and backed up a week later to win a 5’f’ Group 1? Both WFA races beating Group 1 winners,so she is certainly a horse that is not 1 dimensional.When you consider she didnt have her first group 1 start until her 8th race start,so that makes it 11 group 1 wins in her last 14 starts! Beat that for best horse in the world!
HGM if the "average UK punter" doesnt rate winning a race in Australia then it’s not worth a substantial reply. Those that have a clue can see how good she is. Dont be fooled by the media & think that the Melbourne Cup is rated as Australia’s best quality race. we know it’s a handicap etc.
Scenic Blast’s rating went up by winning the Kings Stand &it wasnt even the best field he had faced; this shows either bias or ignorance on part of the raters. Also I doubt her connections give a toss re the UK breeders, why would they?
As for Breeders Cup, most over rated meeting in the world. How many genuine A graders have Europe sent over? IMO this year’s Lightning Stakes is one of the highest ratwd races you find anywhere in the world tbus year but alas it’s only an Aussie race
Also, himself, it was the Hong Kong mile, not Singapore.Enough of the daft questions Joni
Why the hell would they send her to the UK if it wasn’t important to them? They want to prove she is the best and they want the history books to tell it..As far as breeding goes they want the best horses in the world to mate with her………like Frankel. Imagine what that foal would fetch…mind boggles.Do you want me to name every Group 1 winner starting with Pebbles in 1985 that have gone to the Breeders or should I start with Goldikova……there have been dozens upon dozens that have gone
If you are going to boast the best in the world then you have to go beat them unless of course you are in the UK or the USA and they come to you. That is just the way it is.
Not once in living memory has a champion of champions gone to Australia from our shores as there is nothing to gain but reversed there is plenty.
Before now, if you ask a Brit or a yank the best sprinter they have ever seen virtually none would name an Australian horse but Black Caviar can change that by going to Ascot and kicking ass.
The yanks would ask Scenic who?…they are worse than you Aussies so we have to remind them every year there a world outside of their little Island
PS I do read a bit but to be honest I am ashamed to say up to now I have never ever heard of the Lightning Stakes and that is the God’s honest truth
…..I would suggest I am not alone.
The "Best In The World" tag should have absolutely nothing to do with how many races a horse has won. There’s an American horse (was it last year?) that’s won a sxxt load of races at a lower level. Thankfully I can’t remember his name. Basically racing in grades lower than his ability. All the number of races won tells you is the horse’s consistency and durability, nothing about quality.
Say a horse wins 10 races at a lower level and then gets beaten 5 lengths by a horse of obviously better quality, who’s fragility only allows him to produce his best once or twice a season. Which of those two is the "best horse"? Surely it can’t be the one who’s form is of a vastly inferior merit?
Zenyatta ran in two top top quality races and got beaten in one of them. Her second was put down to jockey error, being so far behind. But in truth, jockey error was that of those out in the leading group. Ignore those who went off at a ridiculous pace, they had no chance of keeping up the gallop and beaten before the home straight. If comparing the distance between winner Blame and Zenyatta on the first bend, it’s nothing out of the ordinary. Been made up plenty of times before. But Zenyatta wasn’t capable of bridging the gap. Albeit not helped by Mike Smith getting unbalanced through over-use of the whip (not a great surprise). Got there in plenty of time to go by, but didn’t. Zenyatta was probably a bit below her best in finishing second, but not by that much. Blame was no more than an average Breeders cup Classic winner.
The year before, Zenyatta had beaten Gio Ponti a length in the 2009 Classic; with another 1 1/4 back to Twice Over. Both second and third are good Group 1 winners, but they’re not outstanding. A good performance and probably in ratings terms Zenyatta’s best. But it’s nowhere near the form of the "Best In The World". To be that, you’ve not only got to win, but win easily, or by a street. She got the plaudits not only for the number of wins, but also how she won, choosing to use her speed at the end of races instead of the start or middle. Something that looks good to the general racing public. ie sentiment. Ask any Zenyatta fan to say what form line entitles her to be classed so highly and they are unable to answer.
Zenyatta obviously deserves credit for her consistency and ability to beat the best of her own sex (though even then there’s Rachel to consider), and yes, her quality. However, she does not deserve to be rated anywhere near the likes of Secretariat, Seattle Slew etc in the USA. Let alone the likes of Frankel and Black Caviar.Value Is EverythingPS I do read a bit but to be honest I am ashamed to say up to now I have never ever heard of the Lightning Stakes and that is the God’s honest truth
…..I would suggest I am not alone.
No problem HG Man the lightning is probably the race that most Aussie Kings Stand winners have won.I am not being biased but if you look at the history of the race and winners i think it is undoubtably the best 5f* (1000m) race in the world,they fly in the race and have had better winners of the race then have gone to England for the KS.How good is Black Caviar? it is well documented at her 4th or 5th start as a 3yo filly up against older hores,the horse she beat ‘Wanted’ won the time honoured ‘Oakleigh’ Plate an 1100m Group 1,Black Caviar knuckled over at the start and pulled the muscles in her chest! She still won,had to be spelled to recover,how good is that! Only a once in a lifetime horse could do that,even as a 3yo filly,she had the class and guts to still win.As she is becoming known now, the ‘Excitement Machine’ is coming your way.
If i can put an unbiased opinion forward as a purist,to put it bluntly,only a ‘Dickhead’ would bag Frankel,Black Caviar and for that matter Zenyatta,she was a great mare,also Sea The Stars,what a champion!Poor season some say,he would have went just as well in a great season!
The "Best In The World" tag should have absolutely nothing to do with how many races a horse has won. There’s an American horse (was it last year?) that’s won a sxxt load of races at a lower level. Thankfully I can’t remember his name. Basically racing in grades lower than his ability. All the number of races won tells you is the horse’s consistency and durability, nothing about quality.
Say a horse wins 10 races at a lower level and then gets beaten 5 lengths by a horse of obviously better quality, who’s fragility only allows him to produce his best once or twice a season. Which of those two is the "best horse"? Surely it can’t be the one who’s form is of a vastly inferior merit?
Zenyatta ran in two top quality races and got beaten in one of them. Her second was put down to jockey error, being so far behind. But in truth, jockey error was that of those out in the leading group. Ignore those who went off at a ridiculous pace, they had no chance of keeping up the gallop and beaten before the home straight. If comparing the distance between winner Blame and Zenyatta on the first bend, it’s nothing out of the ordinary. Been made up plenty of times before. But Zenyatta wasn’t capable of bridging the gap. Albeit not helped by Mike Smith getting unbalanced through over-use of the whip (not a great surprise). Got there in plenty of time to go by, but didn’t. Zenyatta was probably a bit below her best in finishing second, but not by that much. Blame was no more than an average Breeders cup Classic winner.
The year before, Zenyatta had beaten Gio Ponti a length in the 2009 Classic; with another 1 1/4 back to Twice Over. Both second and third are good Group 1 winners, but they’re not outstanding. A good performance and probably in ratings terms Zenyatta’s best. But it’s nowhere near the form of the "Best In The World". To be that, you’ve not only got to win, but win easily, or by a street.
Zenyatta obviously deserves credit for her consistency and ability to beat the best of her own sex, and yes, her quality. But does not deserve to be rated anywhere near the likes of Secretariat, Seattle Slew etc in the USA. Let alone the likes of Frankel and Black Caviar.Mike Smith rode the worse race in living memory and set her an impossible task and she still almost pulled it off.
As much as we will always be mates I have to say you don’t half talk some shyte Ginger. When she beat Gio Ponte she was ridden to do exactly that, stick 10 horses in front of him she’d have beaten them too………..Zenyatta is one of the best Fillies I have ever seen and had she been trained in Europe she would have still been unbeaten to this day IMO. She was a machine of excellence and if ever a horse was ridden to do what she had to to do it was her….so you can toss the form book right out the window it is meaningless where she’s concerned
She is probably the most underrated horse ever by Timeform because she didn’t have the horses to race against the likes of Pebbles eg had.
You should rephrase that last sentence. If Secretariat had been rated by Timeform who didn’t do USA rating at the time he would be miles in front of Sea Bird II let alone Frankel or Black Caviar….You probably don’t know this but he came to earth in a space space ship with Kal El and his father Bold Ruler was better known as Jor El
The "Best In The World" tag should have absolutely nothing to do with how many races a horse has won. There’s an American horse (was it last year?) that’s won a sxxt load of races at a lower level. Thankfully I can’t remember his name. Basically racing in grades lower than his ability. All the number of races won tells you is the horse’s consistency and durability, nothing about quality.
Say a horse wins 10 races at a lower level and then gets beaten 5 lengths by a horse of obviously better quality, who’s fragility only allows him to produce his best once or twice a season. Which of those two is the "best horse"? Surely it can’t be the one who’s form is of a vastly inferior merit?
Zenyatta ran in two top quality races and got beaten in one of them. Her second was put down to jockey error, being so far behind. But in truth, jockey error was that of those out in the leading group. Ignore those who went off at a ridiculous pace, they had no chance of keeping up the gallop and beaten before the home straight. If comparing the distance between winner Blame and Zenyatta on the first bend, it’s nothing out of the ordinary. Been made up plenty of times before. But Zenyatta wasn’t capable of bridging the gap. Albeit not helped by Mike Smith getting unbalanced through over-use of the whip (not a great surprise). Got there in plenty of time to go by, but didn’t. Zenyatta was probably a bit below her best in finishing second, but not by that much. Blame was no more than an average Breeders cup Classic winner.
The year before, Zenyatta had beaten Gio Ponti a length in the 2009 Classic; with another 1 1/4 back to Twice Over. Both second and third are good Group 1 winners, but they’re not outstanding. A good performance and probably in ratings terms Zenyatta’s best. But it’s nowhere near the form of the "Best In The World". To be that, you’ve not only got to win, but win easily, or by a street.
Zenyatta obviously deserves credit for her consistency and ability to beat the best of her own sex, and yes, her quality. But does not deserve to be rated anywhere near the likes of Secretariat, Seattle Slew etc in the USA. Let alone the likes of Frankel and Black Caviar.Mike Smith rode the worse race in living memory and set her an impossible task and she still almost pulled it off.
As much as we will always be mates I have to say you don’t half talk some shyte Ginger. When she beat Gio Ponte she was ridden to do exactly that, stick 10 horses in front of him she’d have beaten them too………..Zenyatta is one of the best Fillies I have ever seen and had she been trained in Europe she would have still been unbeaten to this day IMO. She was a machine of excellence and if ever a horse was ridden to do what she had to to do it was her….so you can toss the form book right out the window it is meaningless where she’s concerned
She is probably the most underrated horse ever by Timeform because she didn’t have the horses to race against the likes of Pebbles eg had.
You should rephrase that last sentence. If Secretariat had been rated by Timeform who didn’t do USA rating at the time he would be miles in front of Sea Bird II let alone Frankel or Black Caviar….You probably don’t know this but he came to earth in a space space ship with Kal El and his father Bold Ruler was better known as Jor El
Spot on HG Man Ginger has aways said she was ridden to suit,Mike Smith slaughtered her! A tragedy she didnt remain unbeaten!!!
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