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Perhaps it could be said that the Callaghan Labour government and the Thatcher government were both bad, in different ways.
Moehat’s experiences echo those of my family. It is a purely personal view, rather than a political point, but my impression of the Thatcher years is that she sacrificed many working class communities, notably those that grew up around coal minining, ship building and steel working, in pursuit of an economic theory. From my family’s perspective they were the years when it was no longer acceptable for a working class man to simply do the same job all his adult life, to raise a family and have a part in a community. If you weren’t an entrepreneur, you were nothing.
Now that may have been good for the economy of the country. But working class communities gave people with little education and few prospects a chance to belong. It may have been hard, unpleasant work and it was certainly no paradise, but there was a social cohesion to the working class that has gone now.
And rather like Blair, Thatcher’s personal prejudices and beliefs too easily became government policy.
But we are going off track a little here I guess. Paulostermyer, though I probably don’t share his political viewpoint, is right to point out that we should make the effort to look back at what has gone before in order to understand today’s politics.
Interesting post Andrew – I am intrigued by the constant referral to "working class communities"
Isn’t "class" something that should be consigned to the history books, an outdated concept from the 19th Century and early 20th Century?
It is this outmoded concept of class that "old Labour" in particular, clung on to in an attempt to justify its reason for existing.
Many “old Labourâ€
Moehat’s experiences echo those of my family. It is a purely personal view, rather than a political point, but my impression of the Thatcher years is that she sacrificed many working class communities, notably those that grew up around coal minining, ship building and steel working, in pursuit of an economic theory.
So what?
What was the alternative? Throwing money at dead beat, strike ridden, loss making uncompetitive industries for ever more? A constant drag on the rest of the economy and a drain on taxpayers?
No chance
Some on here cant have been around in 1979. Paul is spot on. We were the "sick man of europe" riddled with the "british disease". We were a laughing stock.
Within ten years we were a country that many others were taking their economic lead from and within 20 we were as vibrant economy as anywhere in the western world
In 1979…no one…would have have predicted that. No one at all…
I used working class here because it is the easiest way to describe the section of society that I feel suffered under Thatcher. It is also how they described themselves.
Let’s put it another way. In those communities I mentioned; mining, steel, shipbuilding, for the bulk of young people who left school with little or no qualification, they had the option of going into those traditional industries. The work wasn’t easy, nor was the life, but they had something – a job and a place in a community with a lot of other people who shared the same experiences. Society now is more fragmented and people are judged on what they have. Working long hours in a factory is regarded as a failure these days, rather than something worthwhile.
It could of course be argued that those industries were inefficient and eventually would have fallen by the wayside – I am no economist so am in no position to argue. But the speed with which they were broken up undoubtedly caused devastation in those communities which in turn were broken up.
I don’t believe that ‘class’ was an outdated concept in the 1980s. Neither can you say that because some union/Labour politicians were dodgy, that the entire Labour/socialist movement was worth nothing.
All an election decides is who gets to manage that centre-right agenda.
Some democracy.
What total crap
If there was a desire for a far left (or far right) party, then someone would fill the gap.
The far left is at its lowest ever point. Its failed the world over and is now desperately courting the extreme right islamists in its pathetic attempts to find allies against the evil jews and west.
No wonder no one wants to know them.
The SDP came from nowhere in the eigthies and won seats because there was a vacuum in the centre. These days, with the information technology, it should be easier still to raise your profile
Simple fact is that no one in their right mind wants extreme policies
Anyone who believes that far left command economics are the future is probably mentally ill, given the overwhleming evidence to the contrary.
And few want swivel eyed true unregulated free market nutters in charge either
I used working class here because it is the easiest way to describe the section of society that I feel suffered under Thatcher. It is also how they described themselves.
Let’s put it another way. In those communities I mentioned; mining, steel, shipbuilding, for the bulk of young people who left school with little or no qualification, they had the option of going into those traditional industries.
Andrew
I’ve lived in what you could call a mining community (near to Coalville) for over 30 years and whilst what you say with regards to getting a job if you left with no qualifications is true, the opposite at the time , if you did have qualifications, was rather more difficult. You couldn’t even get a job down the pit because they were already taken by 3rd generation miners who hadn’t bothered to get themselves a decent education because they "knew" they had a job when they left school. It was almost the social security of the day.
The work wasn’t easy, nor was the life,
It was easy for a good few. I have a close friend who went down the pit on leaving school (early eighties) to take up an apprenticeship I think who in the last 3 years working there spent most of it either playing cards or sleeping on top of a generator and then when made redundant in his mid twenties walked away with over seventeen grand. He then got on his bike and got a job within a month.
Good point. I well recall doing holiday work in factories during the late seventies and the abuses at that time (and union power) had to be seen to be believed
As ever on the left, there has been a strong tendency to over-romaticise the "working class" not to mention their supposedly cosy little communities
What total crap
Clivex, I would be grateful in future if you would do me two favours:
1. Read what I say, rather than what you want to read into what I say.
2. Try and refrain from being rude while you go about it. You’ll find that you will get your point across (when you have one) much better, than if you resort to this kind of plonkery.
That is all.
Your old pal
GrassNo favours, until you explain why the system we have is not democratic…
Its a constant whinge from the far left that the only reason they arent being voted in to wreck this country is because no one has a chance to vote for them.
Whereas UKIP, the BNP, and the Greens have developed as fringe parties over the past decade,…there has been abolsutely nothing from the left
That tells its own story and it demostrates a real cynicism and complete lack of bottle that the supposedly far left remaining members of the labour party do not have the guts to leave
Here goes:
The constituency-split has been jerry-mandered to such an extent over the years that a Labour or Tory government will always be returned in this country.
FPP voting means that an unrepresentative Government is always elected in the UK, but is able to implement it’s (minority) policy at will.
UK politicians (a few noble exceptions aside) will generally put Party before Consituency – further misrepresenting those who voted for them (as well as those who didn’t).
The two main Political Parties in this country offer broadly the same policies; whether it be the Economy (strong, free-market), Foreign-Policy (North Atlantic over Europe), Education (outsourcing), the NHS (more outsourcing) or Tax (redestribute The Wealth – to the wealthy). It’s my contention that, regardless of which of the pair get in, policy will be the same – only the application might differ. The end result is that, whether you vote Tory or Labour, you will end up with the same thing anyway.
So, we end up with a Government which is elected with no genuine mandate, but which can impose it’s policy at will. And we end-up with an opposition which sits on it’s hands and stares at its shoe-tips for most of the time, because they don’t really have too much complaint with the policy – only the apparent incompetence with which it is being applied.
That being the case, I feel we have the illusion of democracy, rather than a true democracy.
Do people care about it? Probably not in the vast majority of cases.
I hope and trust this answers your utterly crap question.
The reason we have reached that stage is because there is no appetite at all for alternatives
We have reached where the US got to decades ago
My point is that if there was real desire for fundamental change, then eitehr a mainstream party would offer it or a fringe party would break through. FPP doesnt help but didnt stop the SDP. Hasnt stopped the SNP in West Albania either
PR can be messy, but the system of first-past-the-post is fundamentally flawed.
Let’s imagine we live in a country where there are only two parties involved in an election, and let’s assume that there are 100 potential political representatives to be elected and no geographical variations.
Across the country, Party 1 – The Work Party, let’s call them – is supported by 52% of the voting population. Meanwhile, Party 2 – The Play Party – gets 48% of the votes.
Under the current system, we would end up with 100% of the politicians from Party 1, and as we are well aware, all Work and no Play makes Jack a dull boy. No-one is there to represent the views of almost half the country.
Moving back into the real world, there are plenty of people living in constituencies viewed as ‘safe seats’. Due to the local population demographics, there is effectively no chance of any other result. Everyone in that area voting for any other party does so in the knowledge that their preferred candidate won’t win, and therefore their vote is effectively useless and will count towards nothing. If you can convince me that that is democratic, I’ll eat my cat.
No favours, until you explain why the system we have is not democratic…
Its a constant whinge from the far left that the only reason they arent being voted in to wreck this country is because no one has a chance to vote for them.
Whereas UKIP, the BNP, and the Greens have developed as fringe parties over the past decade,…there has been abolsutely nothing from the left
That tells its own story and it demostrates a real cynicism and complete lack of bottle that the supposedly far left remaining members of the labour party do not have the guts to leave
Stop going back and editing your posts, when I’ve already replied to the original, you pest.
“Absolutely nothing from the left” is the key phrase here.
Perhaps that’s what Labour voters were hoping for during the last three Governments – something “from the left”?
Only now are they coming to terms with the fact that Labour is actually a centre-right party, and – probably quite rightly – suspect that the Tories could do a better job as the governing centre-right party. They, after all, are historically from that area of the political spectrum, and have lots of experience to draw down on, in terms of implementing centre-right policy. Why entrust such policy to relative johnny-come-latelys like New Labour?
Also, you seem to think that anything that is left of centre is “far left” – it’s always “the whinging far-left” with you. You seem to think that there is no political ground between Tory/New Labour and the Trotskyites.
It isn’t the case. One can be left of the political mainstream, without being a frothing-at-the-mouth Communist, you know. You can even be left of the political mainstream and believe that a strong, free-market economy is both necessary and desirable.
I think you are sometimes guilty of thinking we live in 1976, and that anyone who is left of the political mainstream wants to re-nationalise everything, and hand unlimited power back to the unions in the hope of creating some Alice-in-Wonderland, Marxist utopia.
Speaking only for myself, that is miles from where I come from politically, yet you seem to labour under the apprehension that it might be. It isn’t.
Just thought I’d clear that up.
You seem to think that there is no political ground between Tory/New Labour and the Trotskyites.
I do. But no one has successfully articulated what that ground represents
And im even less sure its simply a matter of left and right now. You are right in suggesting most strongly believe in the free market these days, but how that is regulated or managed is open to differing priorities which cannot always be simply defined left/right
As I said, mine was a personal view, not a political analysis. I have no ‘romantic illusions’ about the nature of factory/mining work, nor the abuses, nor the hardness of the life. I happen to believe that there was a benefit for the country as a whole for the large numbers of unskilled lightly qualified young people who emerge from our education system every year to have somewhere to go rather than hanging around on street corners and that strong communities, with all their faults, are preferable to no communities. Many disagree, as I well understand.
The emergence of the labour movement and the old working class values of self-reliance, self-education and hard work are, in my opinion, good things and should not be forgotten.
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