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Personally I would have him in the villain camp.
Because he rides the best horses which will win just because they are better that the oposition no one seems to say anything about him and his numerous poor rides.
Today Order of St George and Seventh Heaven, but because he wins on Minding nothing is said.
Maybe it’s me but I don’t think he is that good.A high percentage of the time I’d say he is riding to instructions. O’Brien seems meticulous when it comes to tactics of a race and walking the course etc and probably has a plan B, C and D drawn up for likely/unlikely scenarios. He could have been closer to the pace in the long distance with it being not the quickest the 1st and 2nd were not coming back as fast as Moore probably thought or maybe his horse didn’t quicken as much as he expected, he did run in the Arc not that long ago highlighted by Steeplechasing and that could have taken a bit out of the tank.
Seventh Heaven was one of those rides that nothing went right, they all have them, one of those things. I don’t think Moore is beyond criticism. C4, ATR, RUK never criticise anyone very much so no surprise there. I’m sure he gets as much stick on here as any other jockey but that’s natural as he rides the most favs. He must be doing very well if he’s not getting knocked on forums.Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Ryan Moore will be the first to say that jockeys don’t get it right all the time but as a punter you also have to accept that maybe the horses were never going to win the race anyway.
Look at Order Of St. George today, never mind the fact he ran his heart out in the arc only two weeks ago, he also has never actually run over a distance of 2 miles. Backing a horse at odds on at a distance he has never competed at (regardless of racing over further) is a huge risk.
If Moore had given him a different ride then who’s to say the horse wouldn’t have folded tamely and finished further back.
The reason he rides the best horses now is because he has proved time and time again what a fabulous jockey he is and that’s what happens.Some may feel aggrieved by the Seventh Heaven ride but come on this is a horse that has won two group 1’s by being held up in the rear of the field. You just have to look at the form to know this as fact. Drawn in 13 has seriously hampered her chances and the tactics didn’t pay off.
Ryan Moore = Hero
neither – why start with tabloid categories and then try shoe-horn him into one of them ?
he is regularly invited by racing authorities outside GB – eg Japan and HK – not for showmanship but for riding ability.
he is not the issue, so much as the apparent absence in GB of any structure through which disappointing performances may be identified and then required to be explained to the betting public.
the racing media have no power to compel explanation, and while in GB the racing authorities have the power they perhaps do not have the resources in time or money.
in HK – with only two meetings per week – the stewards issue a racing incident report after each fixture as part of the mission to maintain betting confidence. this includes non-disciplinary scrutiny like this (race 8 from the 24/02/2016 meeting):
>> When questioned regarding the disappointing performance of FANTASTIC FEELING, R Moore stated that the horse was more stirred up behind the barriers than it was prior to its last start when successful. He said he had hoped to be slightly closer in the run as he anticipated that GENERAL IRON would shift in towards the rail which would allow him the opportunity to race outside that horse. He said however that GENERAL IRON remained racing in a one-off position making the first turn and for this reason he steadied FANTASTIC FEELING in order to obtain cover behind that horse. He said after being able to shift in to race behind GENERAL IRON after the 800 Metres, he then shifted out into a three wide position to follow FULL TALENT. He added after riding his mount along rounding the Home Turn, FANTASTIC FEELING was disappointing in that it did not quicken as he had hoped. He said the horse was bumped by TRAVEL FIRST approaching the 100 Metres, however, this was of little significance as FANTASTIC FEELING was already under pressure. He said whilst FANTASTIC FEELING was not suited by the way that the track was racing tonight in that horses on the speed were advantaged, nonetheless FANTASTIC FEELING was disappointing in that it did not run on once placed under pressure in the Straight. A veterinary inspection of FANTASTIC FEELING immediately following the race did not show any significant findings. <<
http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/racereportfull.asp?date=2/24/2016
Unfortunately, preparing such detailed reports at UK and Irish racecourses would severely impinge upon the stewards’ drinking time.
As for Moore, he’s the same as every jockey who has ever ridden: a hero when he wins and a villain when he loses.
I backed Seventh Heaven and was cursing my luck and the jockey (in the heat of the moment). But, if I owned a horse and could pick my rider it would be Ryan. Richard Hughes wrote a very good column about him last week saying that part of his success is down to the fact that he is a jockey who is not afraid to lose. He chose that inside route with Seventh Heaven yesterday because he knew that staying out wide with a horse drawn 13 was unlikely to result in winning so he took the brave route. How many times did we see him do that at Glorious Goodwood and get away with it? When it works it is a great ride, when it doesn’t it looks horrid. The winner won so easily that it is hard to argue it would have made much difference anyway.
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Personally I would have him in the villain camp.
Because he rides the best horses which will win just because they are better that the oposition no one seems to say anything about him and his numerous poor rides.
Today Order of St George and Seventh Heaven, but because he wins on Minding nothing is said.
Maybe it’s me but I don’t think he is that good.I would agree and I would go on to say that if he really is the best in the world then that says a lot more about the overall standard than it does about him. These days there are far too many hold-up, bridle merchant jocks. Steve Cauthen just keeping it simple seems an ever distant memory. Those of us old enough will recall that Lester was just as adept from the front as the back. Then you had Willie Carson. It is a different world these days.
Given the strength of his book of rides one of the features of yesterday’s card was surely Moore’s riding performance. I have scanned today’s Post and you can probably guess how many words of criticism appear in print. That’s correct, zero, absolutely nothing. Further evidence that the media amount to little more than a bunch of cheerleaders. Interviews just chase positives, why not pursue Moore for an explanation after yesterday’s opener? It is much too easy jockeys.
I have already commented on Order Of St George in the race thread. I raised the question of Moore messing up for a third time on the horse and those fears proved spot on. He basically lost the race after 100 yards and in so doing made the Coolmore team look utterly stupid. How could they allow him to adopt those tactics? The fact that the horse finished relatively close would confirm that without such an inept tactical ride the horse would have won. Any talk about the Arc is just for the excuse merchants.
As is often the case with Moore a strong book of rides meant that he got away with one winner. Even that fell over the line. There was nothing special about the ride.
Sadly, your question will be asked over and over again and nothing will have changed. After all what was Moore’s reward for a dreadful day at the office? Probably more money than most of us could dream about.
Interesting observations. For my penny’s-worth I just don’t think he rides the round course at Ascot very well. He has been caught out numerous times this year and of course we notice because he’s the best out there.
Interesting: I just emailed the Sunday Forum and Robert Cooper read all of my email (well, he couldn’t manage the words “amuse bouche”) except for my suggestion that Moore’s record of three defeats from four rides on Order Of St George ought to be considered.
I would not have Moore as entirely to blame as has been previously commented he would most probably riding to instructions. O’Brien is very thorough in race tactics and in Mindings race it appeared to me that Buick was riding to O’Briens instruction far more expertly than Moore in that race.
Conclusion: They are all heroes when the beast is sent out win.neither – why start with tabloid categories and then try shoe-horn him into one of them ?
Indeed. Moore is an adept jockey who, like all the better jockeys, gets it wrong less often than ‘average’; and has the advantage of being able to ride the best horses, which almost by definition will flatter the jockey.
Reference has been made to Cauthen, Piggott etc who did indeed stand out from their peers. But rather than those good old days being a golden age for jockeyship per se I’d contend that the overall standard today has improved considerably; hence the best/better jockeys don’t stand out as markedly as they did way back when in rose-tinted sepialand
Trickle-up rather than trickle-down: ‘more good jockeys now’ masquerading as ‘no great jockeys anymore’
The ride on Seventh Heaven was a complete cock up. Whoever decided the tactics for that ride got it completely wrong, I knew once they’d run about a hundred yards the horse had got no chance.
A large part of what makes Moore successful is utter confidence in his belief about the basics. Getting a horse relaxed (excerpt below from Telegraph article).
As Chivers says, if he rode any other way, how are we to guess the outcome? wit’s copy of that HK report reflects perfectly Moore’s (Telegraph) quotes about problems faced in a race by every jockey. In effect, he appears to believe there is no perfect position, there is no perfect way to ride a race because you never know what will happen.
We punters are all guessers and armchair critics – I’m not saying we should shut up, that would take all the fun out of it. But, whatever our opinions, they say the softest thing about Mr Magnier is his teeth. Do you think he’d employ anyone but the best?
Some sports, Moore points out, are “mechanical”. They are about repetition. But racing is a story of variables: “Sometimes things are taken out of your control, sometimes you have to be a bit braver and take a risk, because the other way ain’t going to work.
“I can go out there and keep it simple and put a horse up with the pace and keep it out of trouble – and that will be fine, but you’ll probably burn up too much petrol. You have to have relaxed the horse and be relaxed yourself, and just do it economically.
“You’ll need luck as well. A huge part of our sport is draws and ground [or going]. When you come out of the stalls the horse next to you might jump into you, you might be left with no cover. All sorts of things. You’re always reacting. It’s not always going to be the right decision. But for me it’s all about feeling, finding a good rhythm and intuition really.”
In this world of “different scenarios”, panic is the enemy. “It’s not any good for you, it’s not any good for the horse. You try and do it smoothly, and if you’re panicking it ain’t going to be smooth. You’re just natural, you’re feeling it, you just go with the flow.”
The full article is here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/racing/2016/10/12/welcome-to-ryan-moores-world-behind-the-goggles-of-the-heir-to-l/
Just on the Seventh Heaven ride again, those were clearly the tactics that Ryan Moore was sent out there with. The horse has won two group 1 events by being held up so the draw yesterday meant that he had to suck it up and see. If he had gone with the flow and cuddled up in behind Journey then she would have burned up early fuel and may have been hard to settle thereafter. I imagine the horse would have emptied out and finished nowhere near as close as she did.
Journey is a very nice horse to ride when prominent early as she clearly settles down when the jockey wants her to.I haven’t seen Moore’s other rides on Order Of St. George so I can’t comment but running in the Arc 2 weeks previous is a genuine reason why he would have been held up further than ideal. At the end of the day, connections want to get this horse home in the best possible position and those are the tactics that were deployed for a horse that has never run over 2 miles.
If anyone thinks in their own personal opinion that they were two bad rides then absolutely fair enough but I would say there were enough reasons to suggest that they were going to find it difficult to win and were not worth backing.
Just on the Seventh Heaven ride again, those were clearly the tactics that Ryan Moore was sent out there with. The horse has won two group 1 events by being held up so the draw yesterday meant that he had to suck it up and see. If he had gone with the flow and cuddled up in behind Journey then she would have burned up early fuel and may have been hard to settle thereafter. I imagine the horse would have emptied out and finished nowhere near as close as she did.
Journey is a very nice horse to ride when prominent early as she clearly settles down when the jockey wants her to.I haven’t seen Moore’s other rides on Order Of St. George so I can’t comment but running in the Arc 2 weeks previous is a genuine reason why he would have been held up further than ideal. At the end of the day, connections want to get this horse home in the best possible position and those are the tactics that were deployed for a horse that has never run over 2 miles.
If anyone thinks in their own personal opinion that they were two bad rides then absolutely fair enough but I would say there were enough reasons to suggest that they were going to find it difficult to win and were not worth backing.
I think some would argue that Seventh Heaven is a more straightforward ride than Journey. The problem is that from only a couple of stalls away she was given a straightforward ride. Basically, Moore rode Ascot for luck and it didn’t work. It is pure conjecture that being ridden closer to the pace wouldn’t have suited her. Moore will all too often revert to a hold-up ride. He was simply outridden, by some distance.
Returning to the Order Of St George ride. Again it is pure conjecture as to whether the Arc run had left any mark at all. It is not as if he has had a long campaign. Moore has ridden the horse the same way each time and got into a mess on each occasion. I am not sure what your point about the two mile trip is? Obviously, the Arc trip on quick ground was shorter than ideal but having won over much further than yesterday’s trip his stamina should have been a major plus. Moore removed that plus after a hundred yards.
At the end of the day, connections want to get this horse home in the best possible position and those are the tactics that were deployed for a horse that has never run over 2 miles.
Order Of St George had “not run over 2 miles”, but had won the best stayers race over half a mile further when racing mid-div. That tells you the horse stays. He’d also run a bloody good race by racing prominently at 1m4f, settling well when isolated racing very wide early. May be team Coolmore/Moore believed at a longer trip they needed to hold OOSG up so he’d settle, but I see no evidence of the horse pulling in any other race. On the other hand – there is evidence of OOSG being unsuited by being held up in a steadily run race – in the Irish St Leger. Giving the winner too much rope. I did not expect Ryan/ballydoyle to make the same mistake again. Especially when another steadily run affair was highly likely yesterday. Of all runners, Nearly Caught was the only confirmed front runner and had won a slowly run Kergolay… and Quest For More (who can also be dropped out the back as last time) the only ones who’d made the running before. See no reason why he couldn’t have raced nearer the pace, eg alongside Sheikhzaiad Road. Poor ride, whether jockey or connections fault.
However, Simple Verse was only just in front of OOSG early and failed to beat her home. Therefore, I think the horse was quite a bit below his best even allowing for being held up in a steadily run race. Not convinced he’d have beaten the filly had they both been kept handier, Chantilly probaly took something out of him.
Is there much evidence of a draw bias at 1m4f? Suspect not. However, think Moore/Coolmore was a victim of circumstance. They had a good pacemaker in the field in Pretty Perfect and it was fairly reasonable to assume the field would follow at a decent pace. Had they done so – no problem – pace would’ve been a good one and… Seventh Heaven being a stamina filly at 1m4f would not have been inconvenienced. But that didn’t happen. As has been pointed out, she has been held up to win truly run races this season, her only bad race when tracking the pace at Epsom… But opposition yesterday also knew what type of horse SH was. Think the F&M can be put down to a particularly good ride by Dettori/team Gosden. He let the pacemaker go and slowed the field down. Helped by stable companion California/Havlin racing on Journey’s outer – stopping anything rushing around them. Team tactics?
Had Pretty Perfect on the front end been good enough it could‘ve backfired for Dettori. As it was, switching the favourite to the inner made things worse for Moore’s chance – but Ryan wasn’t to know – no room to make an earlier move around the outer.Well done Dettori!
Although Ryan is imo generally the best jockey in the World, I do believe Frankie rides Ascot particularly well, better than Moore.P.S. I’d better express an interest. Seventh Heaven and Order Of St George were big bets for me.
Value Is EverythingAlmost everything’s speculation from the armchair but assumptions need to be made before every bet. In the Arc, OOSG, a stayer, had to maintain a fairly prominent position throughout in what was one of the most competitive G1s in Europe over a trip some way short of his supposed optimum; the less than ideal trip at a fast pace where he had to be up there suggests he had to put out an awful lot of energy throughout the Chantilly race.
Yesterday was his 4th race in about 7 weeks. Assuming he was back in his box the day after the Arc, he had 12 days to recover from what was probably the toughest race of his life.
I’m not saying Moore shouldn’t have been closer to the pace yesterday, nor am I saying he would not have won had Moore ridden him that way (Simon Rowlands in his sectional analysis makes him the best horse in the race). But, all things considered, it was a fairly chancy bet, especially for those like Stilvi who deplore Moore’s hold up tactics yet must know that he is highly likely to repeat those tactics; he believes that is the best way to ride almost any horse. His actions as well as his words make this clear. Caveat emptor.
Had Pretty Perfect on the front end been good enough it could‘ve backfired for Dettori. As it was, switching the favourite to the inner made things worse for Moore’s chance – but Ryan wasn’t to know – no room to make an earlier move around the outer.
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