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Very impressed by that statement from the BHA. My one critiscism is that I wish they’d informed people that they were going to cool the horses down afterwards [eg the BBC crew]; if I’d been expecting to see it happen I wouldn’t have been so worried when I saw what happened to Ballabriggs. Am I right in thinking that after the cross country in eventing they take horses through a sort of shower straight away?
I was at Aintree at the winners enclosure – I don’t know if I missed an announcement or not but I was very worried when only Oscar Time came back in (ridden) – and feared something awful had happened to the winner and other placed horses – in fact I phoned home to find out what had been said on the tv and was told that they were throwing water on the horses and taking them straight back to the stables. In the hurdle race Thousand Stars didn’t come into the winners enclosure either.
Haha some of these posts are as humorous as they are infuriating. Anyone who calls for the GN to be laid to rest and stopped is not a NH racing fan, you are an admirer of horses and shouldnt be posting on here. This is a Racing forum, you people should be posting on some forum dedicated to worshipping the animals such as horselovers.net.
For me the GN is the biggest race of the year, I look foward to no race more. Already cant wait for the next one.
As for Jason Maguires whip ban and the suggestion of cheating and him not learning his lesson, well to be honest I cant really express my true feelings on that one as I may get myself into bother with the moderators. But its fair to say I dont agree with you. I rate Maguire up there with the very best, fantastic jockey.
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As is the same with every National we get overblown nonesense on how us National Hunt boys have no feelings for the horses and care only about money and the spectacle. It really does get tiring.
The National is a perfectly safe race and has always put safety first. Yesterday was very unfortunate, but these things happen. The fences had nothing to do with it. This could have happened anywhere and news flash it will happen again everywhere.
It’s not like you flatsies are totally innocent either. I’d rather watch the National every day than watch horses forced into stalls and watching them panicking like scared children while they’re inside what can only be described as anti-spacious cells.
Jump racing is fine the way it is. It does not need ANY rethinking or remodeling. These things happen and that’s just the way it is. Don’t like it? Turn the channel and watch some curling.
‘The National is a perfectly safe race and always puts safety first’ YOU IDIOT!
Haha uh oh newbie alert! Let me guess.. 12 years old? HA! You kids crack me up…
I agree changes should be made…
1. The space used for loose horses to run round the fences should be filled with more fence. These fences are far too narrow. 40 horses is perfect and there is nothing wrong with it, as has been shown for the last 30 odd years, but with this new bypassing bollocks; they have made the fences too narrow and thus bring downs etc are more inevitable.
2. Make the fences bigger. That’s right. These horses are looking and these and saying "oh this is easy" and bang. Horse down. These horses are sprinting to these fences because they look too welcoming and thus don’t respect them. If they were made a tad bigger and no so sloped; both horse and rider would respect them more and thus will slow down and jump them accordingly.
3. Turrets should be made around the course to look out for animal rights protesters. If they come anywhere near; we gun their arses down.
Look all sites have their little cliques and also the try hards who like to post the most,but when it comes to ‘Newbies’ we are all just sitting in front of a com and typing away (Gasp!! i cant answer that i am a Group performer and they are a handicapper!) No i am not 12 add another 30 years(but i am incredibly good looking!) most which has been spent working with my Father and brother who were both trainers.Just because you love the race doesnt make it safe.
As for Jason Maguires whip ban and the suggestion of cheating and him not learning his lesson, well to be honest I cant really express my true feelings on that one as I may get myself into bother with the moderators. But its fair to say I dont agree with you. I rate Maguire up there with the very best, fantastic jockey.
After jumping the last fence Maguire hit Ballabrigs 16 times without appearing to allow the horse any time to respond. It was repeated, and not very pleasant to watch whether you are a horseman, a once a year punter, or a passing spectator.
Compare the manner of his use of the whip with that of Pitman and Fletcher in 1973 for instance.
Maguire is of course unfortunate in some respects – if he doesn’t use the whip then who is to say the trainer and owner will replace him with another jockey?
The decision of whether or not to use the whip in this way needs to be taken out of the jockeys hands. The whip guidelines need to be amended so that the whip can only be used as a corrective tool (for instance to stop a horse veering sharly to one side) and not a means of making a horse run faster – it has recently been suggested that horses who are whipped do not actually run faster in any case. Sir Peter O’Sullevan is a prominent anti-whip campaigner, and I read somehwere recently that Louis Ronmanet believes the whip will be banned in the next 5 years.
Listen to the following interview by Trevor Denman with Eddie Delahoussaye. The closing comments about the whip prove that not everyone in the world of racing, horsemen included, believe the whip is an essential key to making horses perform at their best – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nLTrp3nIM.
I wonder what they would have made of Maguire’s perfromance in the saddle on Saturday?
I agree with shattered over his views here.
There are a group of extremely sanctimonious pontificators on here who think that they have some form of deity status, and whilst whingeing about bad form etc., constantly abuse others.
Lets please remember that , this is what seperates this from other forums.
If you do not want it to degenerate into that mire, please do not try to deter new posters, they may know more than you !!As for Jason Maguires whip ban and the suggestion of cheating and him not learning his lesson, well to be honest I cant really express my true feelings on that one as I may get myself into bother with the moderators. But its fair to say I dont agree with you. I rate Maguire up there with the very best, fantastic jockey.
After jumping the last fence Maguire hit Ballabrigs 16 times without appearing to allow the horse any time to respond. It was repeated, and not very pleasant to watch whether you are a horseman, a once a year punter, or a passing spectator.
Compare the manner of his use of the whip with that of Pitman and Fletcher in 1973 for instance.
Maguire is of course unfortunate in some respects – if he doesn’t use the whip then who is to say the trainer and owner will replace him with another jockey?
The decision of whether or not to use the whip in this way needs to be taken out of the jockeys hands. The whip guidelines need to be amended so that the whip can only be used as a corrective tool (for instance to stop a horse veering sharly to one side) and not a means of making a horse run faster – it has recently been suggested that horses who are whipped do not actually run faster in any case. Sir Peter O’Sullevan is a prominent anti-whip campaigner, and I read somehwere recently that Louis Ronmanet believes the whip will be banned in the next 5 years.
Listen to the following interview by Trevor Denman with Eddie Delahoussaye. The closing comments about the whip prove that not everyone in the world of racing, horsemen included, believe the whip is an essential key to making horses perform at their best – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nLTrp3nIM.
I wonder what they would have made of Maguire’s perfromance in the saddle on Saturday?
Well if the whip is banned the sport will never be the same again. I couldnt disagree with you more. It will be a terrible error to remove it form the game. From my own perspective as a punter I would no longer bet on racing. Hands and heels is not sufficient for all horses and never will be.
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Like an earlier poster I have defended the National from all my tree-hugging friends over the years but this year – and not because of the outrage afterwards – I found it rather distasteful. And I think this is because I actually enjoy jump racing more now than I have before. The National meeting seems somehow separate from the reat of the jumps calendar in some obscure way. I’ve been aware of it before: you go from Cheltenham, in which there is great sport, to the brutality of the National and mad dash which is not so much a challenge for horse and rider as a series of outright hazards.
As I was going through the form for the race I suddenly thought: this is bloody ridiculous, forty runners only about five of which are capable of winning it and half of which can’t even get round. You know that some are going to die at 4.15pm on the Aintree Saturday. Suddenly it switched in my mind from being a grand old British tradition to being something halfway between cruel and ludicrous.
The Racing Post is always saying: ‘this is our big advert to the world’. Well, it’s a bloody awful advert.
When history comes to be written they will say: ‘it was a tactical error on racing’s part not to begin the slow-motion mothballing of the race because it was a ready made reason for the animal rights wingnuts and ‘reformist’ politicians to punish the sport generally and deprive it overall of its excitement: they started with a ban on the whip, then the horses could only race for 2m4… And all because they wouldn’t wake up to something that had had its day.’Ginger,
Let’s stick to the Becher, which was the only race I mentioned. You claim it must be run at a faster pace because it’s a shorter race. I’d respond by pointing out that it’s invariably run in soft round because it’s in late November, so I’d say it’s run at a slower pace.
The average secs/furlong figure for the two races supports my view, assuming of course that the official distances are accurate.
Becher Nov 2010 3M 2F 7 nins 5 secs Pace 16.35 secs/fur
National Apr 2011 4M 4F 9 mins 1 sec Pace 15.03 secs/fur
So the the ten fallers from seventeen starters in the 2010 Becher weren’t due to a faster pace – agreed?
Agreed, apologies.
I am surprised the time per furlong is less in the National than the Becher. Even when the ground is (according to Timeform) the same on 3 of 10 seasons (06/07, 04/05 and 02/03) time per furlong is less in the Grand National, despite the 1m2f longer trip. Presumably standard of horse and weight carried has something to do with it. e.g. Hello Bud ran in both races last season, carried 11-6 off 142 in the Becher, and 10-6 off 140 in the Grand National. Still find the difference strange.Value Is EverythingI think higher, less forgiving fences (not death traps like the old Becher’s Brook) would go a long way toward reducing some of the carnage. As would cutting the size of the field in half. Several of the lowest-weight horses really didn’t belong in the
Grand National
. I agree that it is difficult to watch in its current state.
You won’t be able to eliminate all risk of equine death from the race, or any equestrian event. Last year, for the first time in over a decade, every runner finished the four miles of the Maryland Hunt Cup. Sadly, one horse, Coal Dust, died from a shoulder injury after getting spooked, rearing and flipping over in the paddock.
Then you argue that the Becher only has 22 fences, so should have fewer fallers than the National over 30 fences, even though you’ve acknowledged Bosranic’s evidence that almsot all falls in the National happen up to second Bechers, which just happens to be the 22nd fence in the National.
All I’m trying to do is point out that on the basis of ten years evidence from the Becher, suggestions on reducing the field size in the National, or running it on softer ground, won’t necessarily reduce the number of fallers.
And so long as you have fallers, you have the risk of fatalities, whether it’s in the Grand National or a 2M chase round a country track.
AP
Fair enough AP, we just have a difference of opinion.
From what I have seen, with a couple of exceptions the fences from Bechers to the winning post seem shorter and more flimsy, compared to those from The Chair to Bechers, which probably accounts for most fallers up to 2nd Bechers in the Grand National
However,
The number of falls IS greater in the Grand National.
In your 10 year sample, 7 of 10 seasons saw a greater percentage of runners fall or unseat in the National than Becher.
With over all:
Becher 164 runners and 62 fell or unseated 37.8%
National 399 runners and 163 fell or unseated 40.85%Also in those 10 years there were a higher percentage of fallers and unseated on a sound surface than a soft one:
Good and good-firm 239 runners 104 fell or unseated 43.51%
Good-soft and soft 160 runners 59 fell or unseated 36.87%The number of fallers is only secondary to my main point. And that is there are more injuries and fatalities per fall on firmer ground. I talked to Dr Pritchard (the jockeys doctor) and he confirmed to me jockey injuries go up considerably on a firmer surface, with a more solid impact. And the same is true with equines. So when considering safety, it does not really matter if there are just as (or getting on for just as) many soft ground falls – fact is a firmer surface injures / kills.
Therefore, it is best to water to produce going genuinely (not just said to be) on the soft side of good.
Value Is Everythingforty runners only about five of which are capable of winning it and half of which can’t even get round. You know that some are going to die at 4.15pm on the Aintree Saturday.
What bull….
"Only 5 capable of winning"?
I backed 7 and did no better than 5th.
Wish you told us those 5 before the race Flash, so we could’ve backed them all and still won a packet. Did you predict the 100/1 winner Mon Mome a couple of years ago?"Half can’t get round". If it is clear a horse is not going to be in the money, then it is pulled up. Does not mean it "can’t get round".
"You know that some are going to die".
Do you?
In the last 12 years of the Grand National, there have been 9 fatalities. That means on average LESS than 1 horse per race. You don’t "know", and it is unlikely to be "some"!Pathetic. But why let the truth get in the way of sentiment?
Value Is EverythingWell if the whip is banned the sport will never be the same again. I couldnt disagree with you more. It will be a terrible error to remove it form the game. From my own perspective as a punter I would no longer bet on racing. Hands and heels is not sufficient for all horses and never will be.
Well Fitzer, I would think that if all jockeys didn’t have a whip to use they would all be on equal terms so the end result would be the same, and so there would be no reason why you could no longer bet on racing.
Maybe J Maguire doesn’t realise he’s going overboard with the whip, after one ban and nearly not being able to ride Peddlars Cross to this, well, either that or he’s taking a few too many chances.
"When you think about those involved in horse racing consider the following. How cruel is the cat owner that lets their pussy wander outside onto the street only for it to be hit by a car? Is the owner responsible for reckless endangerment by letting a cat outside at all in a built up area? Never mind the cars though, since the ban on fox hunting the local vixens have multiplied en masse and have taken a real shine to domesticated felines. There’s a victory for animal rights!"
Well when of my cats died (not on the road) I went to a local animal sanctuary to get a kitten as my other cat was missing his sister & we wanted to have 2 cats. They looked at my post code & as I live near an A road they wouldn’t let me re home one. The person there was also quite abusive towards me & said I was irresponsible having a cat & I should offer him to them to be re-homed. As I had just lost my cat this made me very upset. Also I noticed there were cages & cages of cats & kittens wanting homes. We could have given one a loving home…..so these animal rights people feel the same about cats as they do racehorses. There is an element of risk attached to keeping every animal, so shall we keep all cats in cages & horses shut in stables? I know what my cat prefers & horses of course enjoy racing & competing, but try telling the animal rights brigade.
The sight of a tired dehydrated horse being whipped to the post is a really unpleasant one. I dont know why there isnt more of an uproar – can you imagine if dogs were seen being whipped around an agility course at Crufts?
Racehorses are viewed as machines by the majority – and thats how they justify the whip and the deaths in their own minds IMO.
Flashharry
I think you have it exactly right.
History is full of examples of how what was viewed as entirely normal and acceptable treatment of people or animals came to be seen as unacceptable. And often those who first called such things into question were small groups of folk regarded as way out extremists by the majority. But who, in the UK in 2012, would argue in favour of slavery, formal discrimination against coloured people, the disenfrachisement of women, or employing children in dangerous trades? And it is much the same with animals: who, in the UK in 2012, would argue in favour of bear baiting, dog fighting or cock fighting?
This this year’s National looked like an accident waiting to happen, with the prevailing going and the very warm day. The racing authorities specifically mentioned the latter in their statement, but where is the action line: will the National be postponed next time the day turns out to be "unseasonably" warm?
Accidents will always happen, but once whipping is banned few I suspect would view Flat racing as exposing horses to cruelty. But the sight of the remaining horses running around dead or dying horses and then clearly finishing in a near to exhausted state in this year’s National was a spectacle that, as evidenced by this thread, even racing enthusiasts find unacceptable. If it happens again next year it can safely be anticipated that the outrage will be even greater, and the pressure on government to "do something" will grow. And all too often when government "does something", it does so in an excessive and ill thought-through way. So let’s hope the racing authorities do seriously reflect on the situation, and consider such matters as the timing of the National, whether whenever it is scheduled to take place it can be allowed to go ahead when there is little or no give in the ground, the number of runners allowed, and whether potential runners should have to have proved themselves reliable jumpers.
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Racehorses are viewed as machines by the majority – and thats how they justify the whip and the deaths in their own minds IMO.
The world is not the simplistic, black-and-white place you would have it. Of course, there is absolutely no evidence to support your tabloid assertion, and a great deal to contradict it. You should read that moving Vet’s blog cited in an earlier post before making statements about "machines".
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