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The field for Dalakhani’s Arc was not of the quality of this year’s and imo Zarkava is a better horse. She is an exceptional filly and while I am a huge fan of Ouija Board I would not rate her as quite as high as Zarkava though she has achieved more which is something Zarkava can only do if she stays in training and does a spot of travelling.
I don’t think the proximity of Youmzain detracts in any way from her performance as he loves Longchamp and has never run a bad race there.
Comparing her with the likes of Dancing Brave is imo ott and the times of all the group races were better than standard so indicates the ground was quicker than the official GS.
Ah but you haven’t answered my question ?
On ground similarly described as good to soft Zarkava was over a second faster than Helissio – despite meeting trouble in running and jinking out of the stalls and it was a two length defeat
Moreover, I think Pilsudski was never at his best around Longchamp I mean he only beat Oscar Schindler a neck that day – and a few weeks later Singspiel beat Helissio in Japan – admittedly on a road.
I think some serious overrating went on in the late 90s
Pilsudski ran in Longchamp 3 times….finishing second in two Arcs and second again to Helissio in a different Group 1…he handled it fine.
12lbs might be a bit much, but I would rate his Arc performance, along with Montjeu and Peintre Celebre much superior to Zarkavas and Dylan Thomas’s.
I think you will be in a minority.
Pilsudski always ran below form there in my opinion and his efforts there were overrated – Youmzain is consistently underrated as he can be an in and out performer . Despite his comfortable defeat of S of F in July he stayed on 125 .
I thought it was an another wonderful performance yesterday by Zarkava, especially as she jinked a bit at the start and lost a couple of lengths by going right towards the rail.
I have to admit that I thought she would be beaten yesterday – just a hunch (happily wrong) – and I was delighted to be proved wrong. There was a huge smile on my face as she passed the winning post, because she was the best horse in the race on the day by quite some way, and she never seriously seemed to be under any kind of pressure. In fact, no other horse has been within 2 lengths of her at the finish of a race !
However, I will lay long odds against her ever running again.
If past experience is anything to go by, the Aga Khan will retire her straight to stud, and though they are all saying that her future is up in the air, I wouldn’t mind betting that a decision has already been taken and that she will never race again. No doubt, they are saying that a decision will be made during the winter, just to give false hopes to those of us who would love to see a very good racehorse plying her trade – eg racing – but I fully expect some statement in midwinter to say that they have decided to retire her to stud.Wouldn’t it be wonderful if connections could prove me wrong again !!!
I think you will be in a minority.
Pilsudski always ran below form there in my opinion and his efforts there were overrated – Youmzain is consistently underrated as he can be an in and out performer . Despite his comfortable defeat of S of F in July he stayed on 125 .
SOF was rated around 124 for his Coronation Cup win, even a comfortable win (which was actually only a length on ground that suited neither of them) at Saint Cloud would still leave him on around the 126 mark. Doctor Dino was third that day and has since been comfortably beaten by Getaway and well beaten in a Grade 1 on Sunday.
As for Pilsudski…take out Peintre Celebre and Pilsudski would have won the Arc by around 3 lengths…not bad for a horse that does not handle Longchamp.
I wouldn’t argue with much of that, although I can’t agree with the middle paragraph at all, and would point out that using times in your argument is a dangerous game unless you’re very methodical about it- for example, the clock would disagree quite strongly with the official ground yesterday, especially on the sprint course.
Re; times.
I agree. Race times can quite often be misleading and must only be used in conjuction with other factors. Maybe the ground was riding faster yesterday than was officially stated – but nevertheless, it was still one a helluva performance from Zarkava, irrespective of ground conditions.
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The thing people arent picking up on is Zarkava’s winning style. She treated the Arc field exactly the same as she has her 3yo fillies fields. She will never win by ten lengths she’s not that type she just produces the acceleration she needs to win her races.
Soumillon didn’t even pick up his whip in the Arc let alone hit Zarkava with it, in reality she has won very easily and almost certainly could’ve produced more if she’d had to.
The ground was good to soft yesterday – The tailwind was the cause of the quicker times, particularly in the sprint where it was behind them all the way. According to the BBC coverage anyway. It would make sense.
I thought it was another breathtaking performance and someone can correct me but I don’t think Soumillon even needed to use his whip. She was value for more than the bare margin. Especially given what she did at the start.
It’s pretty difficult to fault a fautless record. I also thought that it was a very strong field yesterday, better than last years, and personally think she would have beaten Dylan Thomas comfortably.
The ground was good to soft yesterday – The tailwind was the cause of the quicker times, particularly in the sprint where it was behind them all the way. According to the BBC coverage anyway. It would make sense.
I thought it was another breathtaking performance and someone can correct me but I don’t think Soumillon even needed to use his whip. She was value for more than the bare margin. Especially given what she did at the start.
It’s pretty difficult to fault a fautless record. I also thought that it was a very strong field yesterday, better than last years, and personally think she would have beaten Dylan Thomas comfortably.
Dylan Thomas in the Arc? Clearly….King George Dylan Thomas would be a different test.
Why do people always want to spoil things by saying such a such would of beaten this or that Why cant people just enjoy this season or that season without trying to knock what one horse did this yr or last.Every champion is different every season is different,so why try and second guess all the time just enjoy the flat seaons as they come and go.
Ian, I completely agree with your last post.
I think every race is different, and you can’t only look at the time they make, unless it’s a very, very fast one, or a snails pace, but HOW does a horse win.
Zarkava yesterday was awesome. It was a super performance, with Soumillon just helping her to put an acceleration that was, yes, just enough to win. I think that she could have won more easily should the Belgian had wanted.
And another point I’d like to mention. Having said, and everyone on this forum agrees, that Zarkava is brilliant, I don’t think that she’s as good as Dancing Brave. I saw his defeat in the Derby against Shahrastani (the biggest unjustice I’ve seen in horse racing in my life; sorry, I wasn’t present at Nijinsky’s Arc), and his victory in the 1986 Arc, and I can assure you that his turn of foot was more than electrifying. IMO, better than Zarkava’s. I think he would have caught her even with yesterday’s ground.
That said, I’ll repeat myself: Zarkava is a very, very high class individual. And I don’t agree with her rating, it’s too low. IMO, it has to be close to the mid-130’s.Timeform have given Zarkava a rating of 133
She’s better than that, in my humble opinion.
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Ian, I completely agree with your last post.
I think every race is different, and you can’t only look at the time they make, unless it’s a very, very fast one, or a snails pace, but HOW does a horse win.
Zarkava yesterday was awesome. It was a super performance, with Soumillon just helping her to put an acceleration that was, yes, just enough to win. I think that she could have won more easily should the Belgian had wanted.
And another point I’d like to mention. Having said, and everyone on this forum agrees, that Zarkava is brilliant, I don’t think that she’s as good as Dancing Brave. I saw his defeat in the Derby against Shahrastani (the biggest unjustice I’ve seen in horse racing in my life; sorry, I wasn’t present at Nijinsky’s Arc), and his victory in the 1986 Arc, and I can assure you that his turn of foot was more than electrifying. IMO, better than Zarkava’s. I think he would have caught her even with yesterday’s ground.
That said, I’ll repeat myself: Zarkava is a very, very high class individual. And I don’t agree with her rating, it’s too low. IMO, it has to be close to the mid-130’s.I think the fact we are comparing Zarkava to Dancing Brave of all animals says all we need to know about the context of this debate!
Timeform have given Zarkava a rating of 133
She’s better than that, in my humble opinion.
She may be better than that, but has yet to actually surpass it (or indeed reach that mark imo). Thats the point of ratings.
Imagine she wasn’t in yesterday’s field. What rating would you allocate to Youmzain had the result been the same without the filly?
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As Youmzain beat the 125 (OR) rated SOF by 0.5l, with the 124 rated Vision D’Etat a further length away in 5th, you couldn’t really rate Y much more than 127?
It’s Gino and Ask obviously ran the races of their lives, but that would put DOM running to 123. much in line with his previous form on anything but fast ground, and Getaway (OR 126) running to about 121, which wouldn’t be far off considering his nightmare passage.
All that would leave Zarkava on a rating of about 130; the mark of a high class filly with the potential for further improvement, but some way short of Timeform’s 133, or the ‘superstar’ so many already seem to have her.
If past experience is anything to go by, the Aga Khan will retire her straight to stud, and though they are all saying that her future is up in the air, I wouldn’t mind betting that a decision has already been taken and that she will never race again. No doubt, they are saying that a decision will be made during the winter, just to give false hopes to those of us who would love to see a very good racehorse plying her trade – eg racing – but I fully expect some statement in midwinter to say that they have decided to retire her to stud.
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