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Hi People:
A common topic on a lot of Racing Forums seems to be that of television presenters and commentators. Clearly, it is a subject some people have strong feelings about. Strangely, this is not just a British phenomenon, but US based Racing Forums frequently tackle the same issues.
As a British voice in a country full of Americans, I have read complimentary threads on my TV presenting and commentating but I have also read threads (not on here) that are hurtful and personal attacks. That doesn’t really bother me, people will say what they want online, but thought a discussion on TV presenting/commentating styles may be of interest to the good people of this forum.
There are two areas I would like to tackle in this post:
1. TV Presenting: As someone who has presented Racing and Non-Racing programming, I honestly think anyone with a reasonably outgoing personality, an ability to talk and who is not camera shy can make a half decent presenter. It is not rocket science and just takes practice. What separates the players are the following:
A: The ability to apply journalistic practices on a consistent basis. A TV presenter needs to be able to present a story/his opinion in a way that makes sense and if not able to show impartiality needs to be able to explain why without leaning on cliche’d terms and meaningless jargon.
B: The ability to cultivate a genuine personality. Giving the impression you are on first name terms with the great and the good and they are your friends, quickly becomes very irritating. The other extreme, seen just as often, is when the presenter believes his "personality" is an attraction to the general public which threatens to transcend the event he is supposed to be speaking of.
C: The most common perpetrators of A and B tend to be those who were once in the racing business who in the words of Howard Cosell now form the "jockocracy" of sports broadcasting. A great career in one aspect of Racing does not mean you will be a great broadcaster. Though the media industry does seem very keen on maintaining the employ of many who seem permanently dug into this hole.
D: Although I do not think we all need to be speaking RP – we are now often surrounded by hollow "estuary" accents and accents which switch from near RP to working-class depending on the audience. Over time, I believe this does not work. People will see through the facade of you "being one of the people" and in the end you will be as hollow as your accent. Point in case, look at come race commentators who were broadcasting 25 years ago and are still broadcasting now. Decidedly less plummy accents…
2. Commentating. All of what I said could apply to race commentary as well. But in particular:
A: I wanted to be a commentator from an early age. But growing up, there were only a few race commentators who inspired me. Most (to my young ears) seemed to sound like Pathe newsreel men with tones and commentating styles designed to drain every moment of excitement and passion as humanly possible. There were exceptions who I admired greatly (still do, as it happens.)
B: Today, we have some great commentators but also some who are clearly hanging in there because of who they know as opposed to their ability to perform the job at a consistently high standard. This is true in the US as well as the UK. If I knew as a teenager, (15-20 odd years ago) which commentators truly bothered to learn the colors and do their homework before a race and which ones did not – I imagine it is also well known among commentators in the UK, it certainly is known in the US. If the standard of commentary is to improve (and I believe, it can be, of course, I still have a long way to go down that path, myself) there has to be a purging of these people and the bringing in of new, committed, blood. At the same time, there also needs to be "Elder Statesman," those who are Senior (in experience) to nuture, encourage and take under their wings, younger callers who show promise.
C: Age really has nothing to do with this. I can think of a commentator now in his 70’s who I would employ as my Senior Commentator without hesitation. I can think of some in their 20’s who I would also employ and every decade inbetween. But also in every decade there are some, who clearly have not cut the mustard for a long time and they are the ones who need to raise their game more or be cut and replaced by someone who with guidance under a more experienced commentator, can be groomed to take a position. This will help to ensure excellence in race commentary. The question is, "who has the balls to make such a move?" It would be easier to do in the UK as the infrastructure is there but may be more quickly achieved by the capitalism that runs racing in the USA.
FWIW, I try to "pay back" the kindness given to me by some commentators in the UK. I regularly have 2-3 teenagers in the USA write and email me. They wish to be commentators and I try to encourage them by listening to their calls, offering advice and so on. Even got one of them (a female, who wishes to enter the profession) the chance to call a race and do a spot of TV Presenting with me.
To wrap this up, ask yourself this. Of the current Racing TV Presenters and Commentators you watch and listen too, how many could cope with a real (non-racing) news story and broadcast it live, telling the story as it unfolded, in a coherent manner, while keeping their cool and journalistic discipline? I bet the list you make will also make your list of favorite presenters and commentators.
For example, this past season at Running Aces, on the day of the Belmont, I had to report the death of Jim McKay, (Sports Broadcaster here in the USA.) do a tribute piece and an interview. We also had two tornado’s during racing and I had to fill in the time to camera. All live, no script, no autocue and so on. There is no way I would have been able to do that decently unless I had journalistic experience outside the realm of Racing.
Thoughts, comments, death threats, all welcome!
Craig
Hello Craig,
I enjoyed reading that and it deserves a better response than I can give. I’ve also listened to a couple of your calls on your other thread with the links.
My favourite commentators here are Simon Holt, because he manages to mix the older traditional type of commentating with the modern and raises his pitch at just the right time for me. Darren Owen, who you know, is another favourite, he just tells it like it is, no fancy stuff – I like that. Presenting wise, I love Matt Chapman who you may not know, but just enjoy his style really – I do think he is one who could migrate to something better if given the opportunity. He regularly gets abused on this forum though, so it’s just my opinion but when he’s in serious mode, and analysing a race, I think he’s untouchable.
I did a bit of commentating for a while, after a fashion….lol…no not what you do. Myself and another lady used to ‘teletype’ the commentaries to the Caribbean and Hong Kong back in the 70’s. We let our fingers do the talking, you see – probably a good idea..lol
…I got told off for using ‘under pressure’ too often
Regarding yours, I will just say that having listened to you, including one on the trotting, I found your accent puzzling and a little offputting, otherwise it was accurate and very good really. Your accent seemed to be all over the place, sometimes American, South African, Australian and London Cockney [?], or similar. This might be due to the fact you are working over there and your accent has not stabilised but it came across as though you weren’t sure which one you should go with, if you know what I mean.
I don’t mind listening to American commentators, so, I don’t think Americans would mind if you just stuck with a normal English accent either, they might like it better. As it was it seemed a bit… all over the place?…otherwise as I say it was very good and you seem to be getting on alright in any case.Hope you’re enjoying life in West Virginia. I used to work with someone from there, he said some folks still think the Civil War is going on.
all the best now
Hi There!
Civil War hasn’t reached parts of here, yet. I am only just exaggerating…
All I can tell you about my accent is this: It is not one which I have cultivated or decided to go down one path or the other, or indeed to mimic or copy. Though people do seem to have an issue with placing my accent…
When I was a kid, I had a terrible speech impediment and my accent grew from the fact that I can use it to pronounce words properly (or near enough to do this job)
Speech Therapy was no good to me and the fact my Mum used to beat me whenever I did not speak her version of RP.
I really think a good commentator should be like a picture frame on a beautiful picture. The first time you see the picture it is amazing, after 2 or 3 looks you start to notice the frame and how nice it is and how it compliments the picture.
Cheers,
Craig
Congratulations on the commentary gig in the US Craig. I’ve a good friend who’s in the process of trying to become a commentator so he’s making me realise just how hard it is to break into the industry.
The chap who used to do Golden Gate Fields (though I don’t remember his name) also made me laugh along with the great Tom Durkin and Terry Spargo at Nad Al Sheba – I always think a good commentator can keep their composure even when it’s going very pearshaped.
One time (courtesy of my old Frankie Dettori video) they couldn’t get the stalls off the track, the commentator was shouting "Look up riders, look up" when they’d all pulled up and cantered round the stalls he goes "You won’t wanna know it folks but I think our tips won it – it won’t be a race mind" then a brief pause and a "I don’t know about anyone else but I could do with a triple brandy right now".
The 1993 Grand National has some classic stuff in it too – from Hamner and O’Sullevan, most notably from my point of view as an 8yo at the time who was fixated on the great race since I made my parents video it when I went to a friends birthday party aged 6 lol when O’Sullevan goes "thery’re going round The Chair, they’re not going to jump it, they are going to jump it they can’t believe it" and "there off into the country, there’s nobody to stop them now".
Darren Owen is one of my favourite commentators and also John Hunt but that might because he does a lot of the day of race calls at my local track Haydock.
Martin
In the UK we have a small number of quality commentators and far too many people on the gravy train picking up easy money for very poor performances. We also have another group of egotists trying to personalise their commentaries with cliches and Americanisms. Post time, from gate to wire, the clubhouse turn have no place in our racing.
Over the last year or so I have been using the very valuable function of the mute button. Learning to read a race yourself is the best way to avoid the rubbish and improve your understanding of what actually happened during the race.
Irish Stamp:
Darren is a great commentator – definitely one of the best there is.
If your friend who is trying to break into the business would like to email me, I will be as much help as I can. Feel free to pass on my email to him: britishracecaller@gmail.com
Cheers,
Craig.
Hi Marble:
I haven’t seen Willie Carson as a television pundit, so cannot really offer any insight there, so it was interesting to hear your view.
There will always be room for those who can be critical and cutting but I can’t help but feel the media in general encourages only those who will tow the party line, easily.
Craig
Wallace:
I agree using terminology which is not relevant is no good, but it does work both ways. For example here in the USA I will refer to the "Home straight" instead of the "home stretch", "Winners Enclosure" versus "Winners Circle" and so on.
Twenty odd years ago there were very few Australian like phrases in their calls, did you feel the same way when they became part of commentary vernacular?
Cheers.
Craig
Interesting topic.
I don’t have satellite television so I only get to see/hear RUK and ATR when I’ve had a bet and watching on the PC.
I think Clare Balding is far and away the best presenter on TV and her ability to keep her compsoure while Willie Carson is fawning over Judi Dench or Bernie Ecclestone is remarkable. I like Ian Bartlett and I think there should be more time given over to race analysis, because when it’s good it’s very good, but like a lot of things it’s not given enough time.
Channel 4, at times, is excellent, but most of the time it appears clumsy and inconsistent. I noticed on Saturday that Derek Thompson has now started referring to himself in the third person. He attempted a pun the other day and finished off with ‘steady on, Thommo!’
Having said that, I saw him at Newcastle earlier in the season and the man was exceptionally polite and courteous with people wanting to speak to him.
McGrath, most of the time, I think is excellent and I rate his analysis of form and understanding of the game. However, I think he is too close to many of the senior personalities in racing. Alistair Down seems ok but looks absolutely terrified when interviewing ‘big names’, and to be honest we could do with more probing interviews than ‘thank you so much for giving 5 minutes of your very valuable time, Sir.’
Then there’s the whole betting side of things….
Dear me.
It’s dreadful. BBC is probably the worst culprit, with a failure to understand anything about the market. The experiment with John Parrott was absolutely awful, and I say this as someone who was born and brought up a couple of miles away from him, but John, what’s going on with your accent? Just talk in your natural way, lad.
But the betting is terrible. Horses backed from 33-1 to 28-1 are regularly described as big movers, some presenters seem unable to read the betting shows and quote old prices. Channel 4’s ring and exchanges bit just looks awful with Tanya’s lad looking frightened and he may as well carry a sign saying ‘it wasn’t my fault they got rid of Big Mac, don’t take it out on me!’
One more moan.. and it’s an old one before I finish on a positive. For this I’m going to put my tin-hat on.
In terms of commentators I think we’ve got really good ones. Simon Holt, Richard Hoiles and Jim McGrath I like a lot. They tell the story and rarely get it wrong. For those who don’t rate them, go and listen to Sir Peter’s commentaries from the mid 1980s onwards. The most famous racing commentator went on for years and years after he should have stopped. I’m aware that this sounds heretical but I think the present generation of racing commentators are Group 1 standard.
Jim McGrath’s commentaries for the BBC at Aintree last year were appalling. He missed lots of fallers and called the wrong horses in the finish a few times.
However the best example of a presenter making a cock up at Aintree goes to Clare Blading when she said a number of jockeys were ejaculated from their horses at the Chair!!!
Jim McGrath’s commentaries for the BBC at Aintree last year were appalling. He missed lots of fallers and called the wrong horses in the finish a few times.
However the best example of a presenter making a cock up at Aintree goes to Clare Blading when she said a number of jockeys were ejaculated from their horses at the Chair!!!
lol, most amusing!
wish I’d heard that live…I agree Jim McGrath (Aussie) does tend to miss a lot of the important moments with runners…
Simon Holt is pretty good.
Zip
Hi ReasonOverFaith:
I dont know why Derek Thompson would start referring to himself in the third person. When I knew Derek Thompson, I was always impressed with his professionalism and he was always very helpful to me. Having directed and produced some television, I certainly would not allow the persona of on-air talent to bleed through in that matter. Nor would I indulge in it as a broadcaster.
I really have not seen W. Carson as an analyst. But with his plummy accent, I do not really see why Alistair Down should be kow-towing to anyone. Everyone’s time is valuable, but if someone agrees to an interview, briefly thank them and get the fawning over with. Of course, he may be under instructions to be that way, I certainly have been and never been comfy with it.
I question the value of having someone in the ring in a day and age where market moves can easily be seen second by second on a computer or on a scrolling message.
Cheers,
Craig
Hi Wallace:
I have not heard Jim announce for many years but he would be in my all time top three announcers. I know I sound like a broken record here, but I have good memories of him being nice to me, so I find it hard to say a bad word about him. I hope if he is off form a little bit, he will soon bounce back.
I have announced with an Aussie over here in the USA who knew Jim thirty odd years ago in Hong Kong, amazing how small the world is.
Cheers,
Craig
Simon Holt is a great announcer and a thoroughly nice guy.
Can’t vouch for the latter as I’ve never had the pleasure, but he resisted the temptation to do anything daft like ending up calling the wrong one when presented with a too-close-to-call finish at Huntingdon today (Our Choice bt Scots Dragoon by a nose).
The collective might of three TRFfers couldn’t split them – mind, we were a few yards further up the track and talking about bouncy castles at the time, so small wonder really…
gc
Jeremy Grayson. Son of immigrant. Adoptive father of two. Metadata librarian. Freelance point-to-point / horse racing writer, analyst and commentator wonk. Loves music, buses, cats, the BBC Micro, ale. Advocate of CBT, PACE and therapeutic parenting. Aspergers.
Derek Thompson is, in my opinion one of the best commentators and presenters around. I know a LOT of people don’t like him but he makes races really exciting and does tell a great story of the race. I guess i may take racing a lot less seriously then some people but for me he makes it enjoyable and fun too. I also like Simon Holt, Richard Hoilles, and John Hunt for commentators, again they deliver the story of the race clearly and with that bit of passion, rather than the monotone types you come across.
Presenter wise i like the majority of the Channel 4 crew, well except the likes of miss spencer and plunket, and mike cattermole. Other than the c4 team, Claire Balding is great, Lydia hughes, Robert Cooper, Jason Weaver, and i’m warming to Nick luck actually.
Hi KautoStar:
As I said earlier, I have a lot of time for Derek Thompson as he was always very nice to me when I was a kid.
From the little I have seen of him recently, he certainly appears to be a good entertainer. If I was his Producer, I would want to keep that, but would also want him to remember (if he needs reminding) that the stars of the show are the horses, not his or other people’s personalities.
Craig
wish I’d heard that live…
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