Home › Forums › Horse Racing › Potential Non-Trier (again) In Coronation Cup?
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Purwell.
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- June 4, 2025 at 12:53 #1731892
Will Continuous be what surely has to be considered a “non-trier” again?
Last time out in the Tatts Gold Cup, Continuous missed the break but – despite the good pace – was rushed from last to first in order to make the running for Los Angeles. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t mind pacemakers, as long as they are trying to win the race for themselves too. ie A strong even pace is fine. Going much faster than even pace in one section of the course can only be to the detriment of the horse concerned. Therefore to all intents and purposes, the jockey was not trying his best to win with his own horse… Which is against the rules of racing.
Value Is EverythingJune 4, 2025 at 14:03 #1731897Do pacemakers have to be declared as such in other countries?

I thought I heard they did in Australia, for example.
I know pacemakers have won sometimes. Maroof in the QE2 at Ascot comes to mind. I am not sure Serpentine was a pacemaker as such but he was certainly not the Coolmore first choice that year.
I have seen once a year punters at Epsom back pacemakers in the Derby. It is a pity to see them lose their money.
If other countries have made it mandatory to declare horses as pacemakers, why can’t we do so here?
June 4, 2025 at 15:31 #1731905It is not a new thing because if you look back to Grundy v Bustino’s epic King George, that was made the race it was simply because of Bustino’s two pacemakers Highest and Kinglet who set off as if the hounds of hell were chasing them but after Kingslet (who took over from Highest who dropped out after 4-5F) he himself stopped as if shot about 4F from home leaving Bustino in front far earlier than ideal.
The actual intention of a pacemaker is really to set a particular high and even enough pace to ensure that the race doesn’t get run at a slow tactical pace where anything can happen and false results can often occur. Unfortunately, far too often a pacemaker will just blast off as fast as they can for as long as they can and actually be of as much help as a chocolate teapot as the rest of the field can often just ignore them (Bullett Train in Frankel’s QE2 and Windsor Palace, Robin Hood and Bullet Train in Frankel’s Juddmonte being obvious examples).
On rare accassions the rest of the field can also give a perceived pacemaker far too much rope (Serpentine’s Derby an obvious example) and are made to look foolish but I do feel that the so called role of ‘pacemaker’ is very cloudy and sorry to say this tends to refer more to Ballydoyle runners (who can be mob handed in races) as you have to make an educated guess at times to pick which ones are or are not there as sacrificial lambs.
Since last year’s Prix Foy, Continuous’s form has gone rapidly south and clearly he is only in the race to make the running at as tough a test of stamina as he can to suit his St Leger winning stable companion Jan Brueghel, who I believe will most likely end up being O’Brien’s next Cup horse (being as he is a full brother to a G3 2m/Queen Alexandra winner and a 2m-2m4f hurdler).
I do think pacemakers should not be allowed (and Stewards should be much tougher on the rules about ‘obtaining the best possible placing’) but being as they don’t have the stones to do that, I absolutely feel trainers should confirm (maybe at declaration stage) that horse ‘a’ is a pacemaker (that might actually stop pacemakers being declared altogether) so that they can be indentified in racecards as being such in order to help punters (especially inexperienced ones who might not get that all horses are running to obtain the best possible position) and that move would be interesting to see how the likes of O’Brien (in particular) would react to entering races mob handed.
I always used to view ideal pacemakers like you see in cycling (be it sprints or mountain stages) where you have a team with several lead out men going to the front to keep the pace high and one by one they peel off (out of the way) for the next (better class) guy to take over until they deliver their main man with a short distance to go and he kicks off to the finish to win the race.
I know its not quite like that in racing but the general overall principle is still the same.
Sorry for the rambling lengthy post.
June 4, 2025 at 15:53 #1731907I wouldn’t be in favour of “declared” pacemakers anyway, CAS. Who is to say a second or third string is a “front runner” as opposed to a “pacemaker” anyway?
It shouldn’t matter whether the horse is said to be a “pacemaker” or not.
It shouldn’t matter if the horse is a rank outsider or favourite.
The rules state any jockey must be trying his best to win the race for his own mount.
Doing nowhere near even fractions – ie rushing around the whole field from last to first in the space of a couple of furlongs when the pace is far from slow – is simply not trying your best to win.A “non-trier”.
Value Is EverythingJune 4, 2025 at 16:43 #1731911Problem is the Stewards are never going to identify any of them as ‘non-triers’ (especially in the big races) because if they applied the actual letter of that law it would be total carnage with the amount of rides on a daily basis that could be guilty of the rule let alone when it comes to ‘pacemaking’ in the big races.
It is a slippery slope that I don’t believe Stewards want any part of so they will happily turn a blind eye to most of it (especially with the big names in the sport) but they will go after smaller trainers/riders.
What about the tag teaming Ballydoyle employed at times to try and beat Sea The Stars and once Bullet Train became Frankel’s pacemaker he was never ridden to achieve the best possible placing in those races (all and sundry knew it too) but nothing was ever said or done about any of those incidents, even though it was a clear breach of the rule.
June 4, 2025 at 17:06 #1731915I think this case is an easy one for the jockey. All he has to say is his instructions were to lead no matter what and the slow start meant he had to use up a lot of juice to get there.
He never went more than 2 lengths in front of the next horse and the pack were close in behind.Do I agree with the ride? Not really but the only way there is a real case is if he not only gets to the front from the start but then kicks on another 6-8 lengths in ridiculous fashion.
June 4, 2025 at 20:47 #1731940He did “kick on in ridiculous fashion”, kicked from last to first in no time at all. That hurts his chance of winning just as much as if it goes clear of its field doing ridiculous fractions.
Value Is EverythingJune 4, 2025 at 21:09 #1731942I don’t remember Bullet Train being rushed up around his field. I could be wrong, but as far as I can remember he went equal fractions through the race. Not the jockeys fault the horse wasn’t good enough to last home. His best Timeform Performance rating before his pace making duties was 113. When pacemaker for Frankel he put up two ratings just below 113 of 110 and 112… And two ratings higher – both at 115, with two at 105 and 106. So Bullet Train actually “ran to form” more often than not when pacemaking. Indeed, he was more consistent than previously.
The thing I object to is going far faster in one section of the race than any horse can withstand. The fastest way from A to B is to go relatively even fractions. Continuous had no chance of producing his best because in a 10f race he did two furlongs in a sprint in order to lead.
Value Is EverythingJune 4, 2025 at 22:17 #1731948Can’t remember which race but Frankel stole a march on Bullet Train and Tom Queally was looking over his shoulder as if to say, come on where are you.
The more I know the less I understand.
June 4, 2025 at 22:20 #1731949Seems a bit of a grey area in terms of the actual rules. The questions of:
Was the horse asked for “… timely, real and substantial effort?”
Was it ridden to obtain the best possible position?could be answered No from both jockey and trainer but the reasons for it can be deemed acceptable. ‘The instructions were to set an even pace for the field but after a tardy start from the horse the jockey got the fractions wrong when making his way to the front’
Is that an acceptable answer? Maybe, just, because when he gets to the front he sets an even pace.
Should the jockey be punished for this mistake? Possibly.
Is it outright cheating the punter, like, schooling in public? Nah, but I get it, it definitely is worth asking the question. I wonder if they did request a response from Mr. Lordan and O’Brien.
June 4, 2025 at 22:30 #1731950In the QE2 Bullet Train took off like a scolded cat (about 10L clear after the first 2F as the rest of the field let him go), Queally ended up having to tow the rest of the field back up to him.
Granted it was the first time they had used him in that pacemaker role so it was probably a learning curve until they got the fractions right in future races but the thing was that Juddmonte didn’t hide the fact that BT’s sole job was purely to be Frankel’s pacemaker so everyone knew where they stod with him before the race and that was reflected in the price he went off at. The six times he did that role only two times did he not start at 100-1 or 150-1 (he was at 50-1 & 66-1 respectively).
I think the art of proper pacemaking (aka front running) is pretty much lost because usually you see riders these days go quick early on to get the lead and the try to stack their rivals up by slowing down for long enough before then kicking 2-3F out……very rarely do you see jockeys being able to go a strong gallop all the way and judge it to where they still have enough left to win the race. I guess growing up watching Steve Cauthen’s almost supernatural pace judgement with front running rides (including in the very top G1 races) has spoilt me.
The one very good thing with sectionals is that you can see those riders that have evenly distributed their horse’s energy furlong by furlong over the race distance, which when there isn’t a horse head and shoulders above their opposition can ultimately be the difference between winning and losing.
June 5, 2025 at 00:14 #1731952CAS , pacemakers not allowed in OZ , horses have to run on their own merits . Any obvious change in riding tactics have to be declared pre race to stipes and are announced on course to punters .
June 5, 2025 at 09:18 #1731959Thanks Helcat. I knew changes in riding tactics had to be declared in Australia but I did not realise pacemakers are banned.
There is nothing to stop a jockey taking a horse to the front and doing something akin to a pacemaker role, so how is the no pacemaker rule enforced?
June 5, 2025 at 10:26 #1731965Horses are not machines.
If a horse is a known prominent runner in Oz and is slow out of the stalls…
Does the jockey have to rush it up to be prominent?Value Is EverythingJune 6, 2025 at 02:19 #1732023Stipes in OZ not like UK and Ire where they turn up to eat their free lunch , they are all over every race , a horse goes out to make pace for stablemate against their normal pattern trainer and jockey will be in before stipes and grilled and if proved are staring down barrel of long ban.
Ckearly if they signal they are going to try to make running against normal pattern stipes will question why , if horse slow away jockey not expected to bust its guts circling field but it will be examined why it was slow away and if correct action was taken.
One read of a stipes report in OZ shows how in depth each race is looked at .June 6, 2025 at 12:41 #1732081HCMW,
If there’s a change of tactics which is told to the stipes is that made public before the race?Value Is EverythingJune 6, 2025 at 14:49 #1732106Looked a very genuine ride to me. Great effort to finish 4th behind proven G1 horses.
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