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Nice piece by Greg Wood.
I can understand fully why Betfair are doing this, but it still irks me and seems pretty greedy (and like Harry Findlay says, against the publicly-held ethos of the company). In these days of bookmakers not entertaining high-profit accounts, they seem to be plainly exploiting a near monopoly. Even if some sort of revolt occurs, I wouldn’t imagine there is going to be enough liquidity on Betdaq/WBX to host the big boys. It’s all the more unsettling when you consider BF would have made nigh on £1M on just one event over the weekend (namely Nadal-Murray).
I don’t know why Betfair didn’t just introduce commission on winning bets as opposed to net profit on a market.
This means that Traders would pay commission on the winning part of their trade as opposed to their net profit on the market as a whole.
Of course ‘arbers’ tend to make huge losses on their Betfair accounts so won’t be affected. I wonder when the bookies will start charging a percentage of winnings as an ‘account management’ fee? Silly me, the bookies close your account if there’s a whiff of you making money out of them.
Surely arbers would be more inclined to make their "profits" on the Betfair side of the bet as opposed to the bookmaker side, given that losing would be more common than winning.
I think its a poor move by Betfair
Regardless of the fact that very few punters are being affected the crucial element is the PR this creates. Far more punters are going to get it in their heads that betfair are somewhat cynically exploiting their (somewhat unhealthy i believe) market leading position than will be affected. Suspect many will believe that they are going to be hit even thought they are not
Stinks a bit of short term bean counters bottom line
Good opportunity for WBX and Betdaq to exploit this
Surely arbers would be more inclined to make their "profits" on the Betfair side of the bet as opposed to the bookmaker side, given that losing would be more common than winning.
Not necessarily. If you lay off with Betfair you will always be showing losses on the Betfair side.
Tuffers
Is it not more likely that the Lay side of the bet will win, which means that most of your profits will be in Betfair as opposed to the High Street.
Tuffers
Is it not more likely that the Lay side of the bet will win, which means that most of your profits will be in Betfair as opposed to the High Street.
There will certainly be more lay bets that win than lose but the losses from the losing lay bets should outweigh the wins on the winning lay bets.
I never lay horse as I am not so much into the profit loss of racing as most.
It sort of goes against the grain but I don’t tthink I am missing out on much if you are corrrect Tuffers and I don’t doubt you are.
However many people seem to be into laying horses with these people which I suppose must effect the on course bookmaker wuite a bit.
I would hate to see them disappear as they bring an atmoshpere to racing no large computer screen ever could.
IMO if we lost the oncourse bookmaker and he is replaced by computers as that all Betfair the tote etc seem to be to me. Then we the punters and owners etc lose the opportunity of having a touch/stick it to the bookies, when we have a little bit of info or we own a horse who is better than his bare form.
I’m sure you follow my drift. Having been there I can say with my hand on my heart you just can’t beat the buzz from having a good bet on at 10’s 8’s 7’s etc., and the horse starts at 5/4 fav….to think that could be a thing of the past makes me shudder.
Anyone who has been involved in a touch will tell you it’s impossible to get on at a decent price of course and God forbid if we ever went pari mutual like the froggies.
FoF
You don’t need to have a bet on-course to see the price tumble. Instead of getting 10s at the track you could probably get 12s on Betfair.
As I said previously on the thread, on-course bookies provide a service but they should have no input into the SP market anymore.
I’m delighted by this news. Why? Because it makes it more likely you’re taking on a human being that an automated programme on Betfair and should make the market less perfect and mistakes more common. The only people who will suffer are not normal punters but software users without an opinion- I have little sympathy for them. The rest of us should be delighted as the money they skim now is more likely to come to us as those without a 20% edge pack it in. A good day for the normal everyday Betfair punter, methinks.
This will mainly affect "traders" rather than punters – the number of punters whose commission will amount to less than 20% of their overall winnings will be very small indeed. You would have to have a 10% edge over the market to be affected and there are plenty of big winners who are operating at a lower ROI than that (while still making a very tidy sum).
I’d suggest that’s a fair appraisal TDK
Spent a wee while crunching my Betfair database which shows overall that it has made a gross profit of 11.51% and a net profit of 7.58% which equates to a commission of 34.10% on gross winnings
Annual commission (why have Betfair chosen 60 weeks?) on gross win set against actual net profit has fluctuated from a high of 82% to a low of 16%
Should emphasise that I’m neither a "big winner" nor make a "very tidy sum": the semi-retired gentleman’s holiday stash is more like it
Wonder what your best mate Glenn trader-and-arber makes of these ‘Premiums’?
Like the rest of the 99.5%?? I’ve received an e-mail telling me I won’t be affected by the charges though with the rather unsettling rider "If you are required to pay Premium Charges in the future, we will contact you before any additional charges are due", which strikes me as a euphemism for ‘further changes to our commission structure may occur in the future’
I haven’t even gotten an e-mail which shows how much chance Betfair think I have of ever paying the Premium charges!
Once again Greg Wood explains it better in The Guardian than betfair can manage to do.
Yes, succinctly explained
Some of the comments are worth reading too. Unlike the majority on the Betfair forum; a basic grasp of mathematics seems conspicuous by its abscence
Given that many people seem to feel that the cut and thrust of a lively on-course betting ring is part of the appeal of going racing, perhaps the racecourses themselves could subsidise/underwrite an acceptable level of on-course bookmaking rather than simply throwing funds at tribute acts to a similar end.
It may even make sense for on-course bookmakers to be contracted workers at the racecourse on the days in question, earning a fixed sum for putting in an afternoon’s honest toil, with the racecourse demanding that certain standards are met (overrounds, each-way betting etc) and possibly sharing any profits over a certain level in return.
The result would be a more appealing betting experience for the punter and increased "job security" (but probably a decreased chance of making a serious amount of money) for the poor on-course bookmaker.
It may even make sense for on-course bookmakers to be contracted workers at the racecourse on the days in question
Cant wait for Barry Dennis’s response
Should make them fill out timesheets too and restrict their toilet breaks
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