- This topic has 85 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 8 months ago by
.
- Posts
Sean Rau
The main thing to remember of course is that with any bet matched up there will always be some money going betfairs way whatever the results.
Where as bookmakers overall need losing favs as the easiest way to ensure profits.
So betfair are in a win/win situation they of course need to try and ensure decent liquidity in the markets.
The US Open tennis markets for example seemed to have held up well with liquidity so maybe it is the poor quality of horse racing that has caused betfair players to find other markets to play on.
With regards to betfair commission charges I doubt they will be thinking of reducing them but if one takes out the expenses of actually going racing it is still the best option.
They could alter the commision charges by having a monthly decay of commision points at the current rate instead of a weekly one.The only thing to look at is the total deposited and the total sum withdrawn or available to w/d. As long as the withdrawn or available to withdrawn total is larger than the deposit total that is all I look at.
btw
Mark who only bets on his ‘any fav’ system found a Corals shop and so far has not used betfair.Being nosey, I’d like to know is
how does
"Commission Paid"
compare with
"Profit Made"?Reading the btfr forum, shows that many of the old lags state that the commission paid far outweighs the profit made. In other words, they’re saying that btfr does best out of the deal.
BF Commission is ‘tax’ payable on Winnings only
Betting Tax was payable on Turnover – the choice of tax paid on Stake, or tax paid on Returns only (paid on Winnings+Stake)Therefore BF Commission does not eat into gross profit as badly as the old Betting Tax
However it is still not a ‘fair income tax’ on accrued – say annual – Profit, as the majority of BF punters will show an annual Loss but will still have paid a Commission ‘tax’ on any wins that year.
The only thing to look at is the total deposited and the total sum withdrawn or available to w/d. As long as the withdrawn or available to withdrawn total is larger than the deposit total that is all I look at.
Yep, as long as "Net Deposits" are negative all’s hunky-dory
Perhaps, after today’s news, some of you most successful btfr punters (0.5% ?) will have to experience the bitter taste of this "unstoppable evolution and progress" spin you preach
"""" Like it or not,the exchanges are here to stay and theirs little anyone can do about it!!"""
Some say the game is up, me laddoes!
20%?
Here’s the blurb:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Premium Charges
In addition to the other charges detailed above, a small number (less than 0.5%) of our most successful customers will incur Premium Charges.
Premium Charges will take effect from 22nd September 2008 with the first charges paid the following week (week commencing 29th September 2008).
Please note that if you become eligible to incur Premium Charges, we will contact you before any charges are paid.
Calculating Potential Charges
Each week Betfair will calculate your ‘gross profits’* made, and your ‘total charges’** paid over the previous 60 week period. The details of these calculations are explained below.
You’ll only be considered for the Premium Charge if your account is in profit over the previous 60 weeks, and only if the total charges paid during that period are less than 20% of your gross profits.
The vast majority of customers, and even the majority of those whose betting on Betfair was profitable over the previous 60 weeks, do not meet both these conditions and will not incur the Premium Charge.
While those conditions accurately describe our most successful customers, they might also apply to new customers who have only bet in a few markets, or those whose accounts are in profit because of a significant big win. To ensure that those accounts are not inadvertently charged, we’ve added two further conditions: any single win that constitutes more than 50% of gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation, and customers will only be considered for the Premium Charge if they have bet in more than 250 markets during that 60 week period.
Each customer will also have an allowance in each 60 week period of £1,000 against the Premium Charge. This means that every customer considered for the Premium Charge will be exempted from the first £1,000 of the charge in each 60 week period.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
This means that customers will never be faced with a Premium Charge that is more than 20% of their gross profits for the previous week.
Please note that the second of the two calculations set out above can only ever reduce the Premium Charge and will apply on the rare occasion that the difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period is less than the same calculation for the previous week.
Premium Charges will be deducted from customer accounts weekly (on Wednesdays) in relation to the previous week’s activity (Monday to Sunday).
Accounts that relate to one person, entity, API subscription or a Master Account with related Sub- accounts (Trading version only) are treated as one customer for the purposes of calculating Premium Charges. Note that no Betfair points will accrue for Premium Charges.
*By ‘gross profits’ we mean the amounts won, excluding total charges, less the amounts lost, on all Betfair markets.
**By ‘total charges’ we mean all commission generated by Betfair as a result of your betting, plus any Transaction Charges, Data Request Charges and Premium Charges you’ve incurred. ‘Commission generated’ includes the commission paid on winnings, but also the commission that Betfair makes from the other customers who win in markets in which you’ve lost, which we call ‘implied commission’. When you win, Betfair collects commission at your rate of commission, but when you lose, the commission collected by Betfair from the winners is at their rate. So we’ll determine the commission generated by your betting activity to be:
Commission generated = (Commission + Implied Commission) ÷ 2
where
Implied Commission = market losses x average market commission rate
We divide by 2 because otherwise we’d be counting each pound of commission twice.
Premium Charge Summary
You will only be considered for the Premium Charge if, over the previous 60 weeks, you satisfy the following criteria:
Your account is in profit;
Your total charges paid are less than 20% of gross profits; and
You bet in more than 250 markets.
Two further conditions reduce the likelihood that you will be required to pay the Premium Charge:
Any single win that constitutes more than 50% of your gross profits over the previous 60 weeks will be excluded from the calculation; and
Each customer will have a 60 week allowance of £1,000 against the Premium Charge.
Each week the customers who meet all the conditions set out above will be charged the lesser of:
The difference between 20% of the previous week’s gross profits and the total charges paid during the week; and
The difference between 20% of the previous 60 weeks’ gross profits and the total charges paid during that period.
Examples
Example 1
You have won gross profits of £10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 800 markets. You have paid total charges of £980; all of which has been paid through commission generated. You have not been charged any Premium Charges over the previous 60 weeks although you have fully used up your annual allowance of £1,000.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £80. You are therefore charged £20 in Premium Charges ((£500 x 20%) – £80 = £20).
Example 2 – Charge Allowance
You have won gross profits of £10,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 320 markets. You have paid total charges of £1,050; £850 commission generated, £200 Transaction Charges and £0 Premium Charges.
During the previous week you won £500 and paid total charges of £50. In the absence of a charge allowance you would have been charged Premium Charges of £50 ((£500 x 20%) – £50 = £50). However, the £50 is offset against the £1,000 charge allowance meaning that no additional Premium Charge is paid. You then carry over the balance of your charge allowance (£950) to offset against potential future Premium Charges.
Example 3 – Excluding ‘big’ wins
You have won gross profits of £8,000 over the previous 60 weeks having bet in 500 markets. You have paid total charges of £1,025, all of which has been paid through commission generated.
During the previous week you won £5,000 from a single market and paid total charges of £125. As the win constitutes more than 50% of your total gross profits over the previous 60 weeks, it is excluded for the purposes of calculating the Premium Charge. However, the commission generated on the win does contribute towards total charges paid.
After the win is removed you have gross profits of £3,000 and total charges of £1,025 and therefore incur no additional Premium Charge.
Amazing, whilst this won`t affect most people im sure the average Betfair user thinks he`s going to be a winner on the long run and will see this as an amazing stab in the back,at first i thought it was some type of levy they where going to pass on,looks like the only pass on is to their shareholders.
To some extent Betfair has monopoly status when it comes to laying horses which can`t be a good thing,with regards to Sportsbetting they don`t really appeal to the professional as you can usually find better prices elsewhere….well at least i can!
This will mainly affect "traders" rather than punters – the number of punters whose commission will amount to less than 20% of their overall winnings will be very small indeed. You would have to have a 10% edge over the market to be affected and there are plenty of big winners who are operating at a lower ROI than that (while still making a very tidy sum).
As far as I can see, I’m the only person on the Betfair forum who isn’t affected!
Very droll.
Once again Greg Wood explains it better in The Guardian than betfair can manage to do.
Google up Guardian then look at ‘sport’ its on there under betfair where winners become losers.
rgds,
Seagull……your right,this is easier to read and understand!
This should be the link
I can’t see a problem personally – at the end of the day Betfair is a company and the duty of a company is to maximise profits.
It is not a charity.
One can reasonably presume the changes have been financially modelled and the bean counters have come to the conclusion the move will not be financially detrimental to the organisation. If it does become financially detrimental then it will soon be withdrawn. Yet if 99.5% of the punters are not impacted then I suspect the argument will blow over in very short order.
It bemuses me greatly when people get up in arms when businesses make decisions that will increase their profitability. That is the aim of a business, indeed where a business has shareholders it is their obligation. The only time where there should be any control over pricing is where an organisation has a monopoly on an essential service – and by essential I mean something that impacts life and limb not the wallet.
At the end of the day consumers have a choice – nobody is forced to bet with Betfair.
If some punters on Betfair are exploiting what Betfair have to offer to increase their profits then why shouldn’t Betfair get a larger slice of the profits earned by that exploitation?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.