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Grand National 2011

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Viewing 17 posts - 35 through 51 (of 529 total)
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  • #330621
    diamond1924
    Member
    • Total Posts 50

    Seriously Ginge, agree with your handicap theory, never bought into the line about 11,10 being impossible to win a national with, but with so many being cleverly campaigned to attain a favourable weight it seems natural to consider better handicapped sorts. Re. Denman, can’t help but thinking he’s sadly regressing now, seems to be bottoming out late on in top class races now, would be astounded if he can be effective in a national, I can’t help but hope they retire him after this campaign.

    #330622
    Avatar photoThe Ante-Post King
    Participant
    • Total Posts 8696

    Brilliant work again Ginge,i had a feeling you would be doing something statistical! The Grand National is a law unto itself and is only ran once a year so the form book can be confusing/misleading,horses both good and bad can either excel themselves or dissapoint,you really need your selection to have survived a circuit before you can gauge wether they are up for it or not,then of course they can fall or be brought down or just run out of stamina,thats what makes the Grand National

    The Best race in the world

    and if you have money riding on a horse who is still jumping sweet and travelling with a mile to go the thrill doesn"t get any better! Memoirs of

    Royal Athlete

    at 66/1 come flooding back!

    #330625
    diamond1924
    Member
    • Total Posts 50

    Denman can’t get the trip…. he’s by Presenting.

    Oh come off it, that is too simplistic.

    May be the Irish Grand National winner Niche Market shouldn’t run then. :roll:

    that Irish National was over 29f, 7f less than a national. That was the absolute maximum mate, and he was well handicapped that day too. I’m unconvinced any Presentings would get 4m4f in a top race, especially off top weight, even Denman – whose jumping can go to pot when he’s tired. They should retire him after this season.

    #330630
    Avatar photoGingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 33112

    Brilliant work again Ginge,i had a feeling you would be doing something statistical! The Grand National is a law unto itself and is only ran once a year so the form book can be confusing/misleading,horses both good and bad can either excel themselves or dissapoint,you really need your selection to have survived a circuit before you can gauge wether they are up for it or not,then of course they can fall or be brought down or just run out of stamina,thats what makes the Grand National

    The Best race in the world

    and if you have money riding on a horse who is still jumping sweet and travelling with a mile to go the thrill doesn"t get any better! Memoirs of

    Royal Athlete

    at 66/1 come flooding back!

    It was an old piece of work TAPK, with a little bit of rejigging. Not made just for your benifit. :wink:

    Over the years the Grand National has been good for me too, as I expect it has for many here. It is fairly easy for a horse racing enthusiast to make a profit over the years, because there are so many mugs who judge who to bet on by damn lies and statistics which do not add up when breaking them down. It is certainly not the lottery some make out. Horses can no longer be hunted around for a curcuit and then make ground.

    Value Is Everything
    #330632
    Avatar photoGingertipster
    Participant
    • Total Posts 33112

    that Irish National was over 29f, 7f less than a national. That was the absolute maximum mate, and he was well handicapped that day too. I’m unconvinced any Presentings would get 4m4f in a top race, especially off top weight, even Denman – whose jumping can go to pot when he’s tired. They should retire him after this season.

    Denman is a better jumper than you give him credit for. When he’s in A1 condition Denman makes very few mistakes. You don’t need an out and out stayer to win the Aintree National. You need something that has done well at 3m2f. Over the last 20 years, the race that has probably produced more National winners is the Hennessey.

    In my opinion Denman ran within 3 lbs of his best at Newbury. Sure, he might deteriorate as an 11 year old; but there is little sign of that yet. Phil Smith treats the race as a special case. He drops the top weights handicap marks in order to get more horses within the "handicap". That means it is absolutely certain Denman will be "well handicapped".

    Value Is Everything
    #330661
    Old Applejack
    Participant
    • Total Posts 209

    the Grand National is a race for the useless who have no previous noteable wins,

    I know I really shouldn’t rise to this, but here is a selection of some of the not notable wins of this year’s National field:

    2 x Grand National
    2 x Hennessy
    2 x Becher Chase
    Totesport Bowl
    Aon Chase
    Kim Muir
    National Hunt Chase
    Cotswold Chase (Pillar)
    Scottish National
    Welsh National
    Irish National
    Charlie Hall
    Peter Marsh
    Tommy Whittle
    Badger Ales
    Topham Trophy
    Grimthorpe

    Worthless, the lot of ’em!

    #330671
    Avatar photograysonscolumn
    Participant
    • Total Posts 6966

    Phil Smith treats the race as a special case. He drops the top weights handicap marks in order to get more horses within the "handicap". That means it is absolutely certain Denman will be "well handicapped".

    Nail, head, hit, Ginger. Phil Smith has made such a virtue of trying to get as many horses inside the handicap proper, without distorting marks beyond the boundaries of plausibility in so doing.

    Denman would present him with a tougher challenge in realising that aim once more, and a renewal with Denman atop the weights will almost certainly not have all 39 others carrying 10st 1lb or more unless the man takes complete leave of his senses. Nevertheless, it wouldn’t surprise me one iota were rivals ordinarily rated 25lb Denman’s inferior to receive maybe just 18-20lb from him in the National.

    gc

    Adoptive father of two. The patron saint of lower-grade fare. A gently critical friend of point-to-pointing. Kindness is a political act.

    #330687
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    • Total Posts 17716

    I agree with everything Mr Wilson says.

    Anyway, Denman could never give weight to my fancy, Flaming Troll.

    Mike

    Tell me you’re kidding Mike :shock:

    So what you are saying is Golden Miller (5) Gold Cups, L’Escargot (2) What A Myth, Mr Frisk, Rhyme n Reason, Aleverton, Jay Trump, Crisp, Highland Wedding, Aldaniti, Red Rum and dozens of others who ran well in the race were a bunch of has beens.

    Never read so much garbage in all my life.

    Depends on the individual on how high a pedestal you want to put him on but too good for the national wouldn’t enter Paul Nicholl’s head if he thought he had a chance of winning the race.

    Read your history lads they accepted wau back in 2008 that Denman wouldn’t get the trip in a bus. Something Christian Williams said even before that.

    #330690
    Avatar photoMr. Pilsen
    Blocked
    • Total Posts 1684

    Oh dear :lol:

    #330696
    Avatar photogamble
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5695

    Quite so and an old
    daylightism springs to mind

    handbags at dawn

    however under present conditions
    with slippery ice atlarge in the fields
    a bun fight could prove dangerous
    – with much more shocking things
    on display than a hairy hand !

    #330698
    Avatar photoSeven Towers
    Participant
    • Total Posts 608

    Fist, Betlarge was joking,(hence the reference to Flaming Troll,) I fear Mr Wilson was not.

    #330699
    Avatar photobetlarge
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2805

    I agree with everything Mr Wilson says.

    Anyway, Denman could never give weight to my fancy, Flaming Troll.

    Mike

    Tell me you’re kidding Mike :shock:

    So what you are saying is Golden Miller (5) Gold Cups, L’Escargot (2) What A Myth, Mr Frisk, Rhyme n Reason, Aleverton, Jay Trump, Crisp, Highland Wedding, Aldaniti, Red Rum and dozens of others who ran well in the race were a bunch of has beens.

    Never read so much garbage in all my life.

    Depends on the individual on how high a pedestal you want to put him on but too good for the national wouldn’t enter Paul Nicholl’s head if he thought he had a chance of winning the race.

    Read your history lads they accepted wau back in 2008 that Denman wouldn’t get the trip in a bus. Something Christian Williams said even before that.

    Back of the net.

    Mike

    #330702
    Avatar photobetlarge
    Participant
    • Total Posts 2805

    Were I to own him, the National would be top priority for Denman.

    1) Smith would undoubtedly make the handicapping terms attractive, possibly

    very

    attractive…

    2) …but whatever – Denman can carry big weights and has a rock-solid constitution.

    3) Aintree’s fences have been considerably emasculated compared to years gone by but Denman jumps well and corrects himself well anyway.

    4) Whether he "stays" is moot. His class, handicap advantage and jumping would surely put him right in at the business end. His bravery would do the rest.

    5) It’s once-in-a-lifetime for heaven’s sake – go for it!

    Mike

    #330724
    Avatar photopeter .h
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1716

    Think everyone knows that Denman runing in the Grand National would be suicide, the horse is too prestigious in Racing history to be used as a throw around in a 4 mile joke of a race.

    Could be worse. He could be in absolutely any flat race in the world?

    #330735
    Roseblossom
    Participant
    • Total Posts 353

    Were I to own him, the National would be top priority for Denman.

    1) Smith would undoubtedly make the handicapping terms attractive, possibly

    very

    attractive…

    2) …but whatever – Denman can carry big weights and has a rock-solid constitution.

    3) Aintree’s fences have been considerably emasculated compared to years gone by but Denman jumps well and corrects himself well anyway.

    4) Whether he "stays" is moot. His class, handicap advantage and jumping would surely put him right in at the business end. His bravery would do the rest.

    5) It’s once-in-a-lifetime for heaven’s sake – go for it!

    Mike

    I’m glad you don’t own him then!

    He is not, and never has been, a National horse. Just because he can carry weights doesn’t mean he should, especially when he has nothing to prove.

    #330900
    Avatar photopeter .h
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1716

    If people only chose to remember horses failures when they retire, then that’s their problem. Give the horse a shot. If he runs well, then great, if not then hey, who cares? Doesn’t make him any less of a legend and doesn’t hurt his legacy at all. If people think less of the horse for not running well, then they don’t deserve the memory of a great horse.

    #331069
    Avatar photocookie110
    Member
    • Total Posts 7

    Glad "the tank" isnt going for the national. He’s got nothing to prove after all

Viewing 17 posts - 35 through 51 (of 529 total)
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