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Yeah cork, your pocket talking, how does an amateur become a pro…
Bar the likes of codd and mullins most want to go on the professional road
Again, drivel, utter drivel
They are not amateurs in the sense they are working in a 9 to 5 job and then rocking up to ride a horse. They work in racing full time. They are about as amateur as some of the Gentlemen who used to play cricket. WG Grace made more money than professionals.
Cricket eventually got rid of the distinction between amateur and professional and racing should as well. Mullins, Codd, O’Connor and the like should be riding as professionals.
“I should’ve added that amateur riders are also more likely to be whip happy and/or persevere longer than they should without pulling up.”
Have you any stats to back that up?Cannot agree with you laying all that and more at the sole door of amateurs. They are part of the fabric of the meeting. Lets see if the pros do any better in their boots.
Sam Waley Cohen timed his run to perfection in the Gold Cup on Long Run
but also had the benefit of having one foot wedged firmly in the door as his father owed the horse
Mullins, Katie Walsh, Twiston Davies all had a nice leg up
but what about the no-body amateurs riders? who cares about them eh ginge?
Lets attracted new people to the sport by telling them they are not welcome in case they make a mistake and go a stride too quick.BTW most Cheltenham festival races on average are run at a faster tempo than the rest of the season, no?
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
I didn’t say it’s at the “sole door of amateurs”, SS; I said it’s far more likely to happen in the amateur sphere. Of course Professionals get it wrong sometimes and yes Ham, “as many professionals get the pace wrong at the festival as there is amateurs”. But that is only because the number of professional races well outnumber amateur races (percentages). Point is you’re far more likely to find a race with all or some of the issues I’ve highlighted in amateur races at the festival.
Bans mean far less to amateurs too, because big races in the amateur calendar come far apart and the number of other amateur races missed due to a ban is generally far less than a professional. They don’t appear to care anywhere near as much if a ban is handed out.
…And no Ham, this is not just about one race, my opinion comes from watching races and studying form -over many years (decades) – reading Timeform Perspective and Timeform Race Passes comments / write ups of races.
I wouldn’t go as far as Corkie; imo amateurs should have a place in Racing and play an important part in NH racing in particular. Got no problem with the Standard of amateur jockeyship around other meetings
I agree it is sad that amateurs won’t be able to ride at the festival; but they’ve had enough chances and even warnings to get it right at the Cheltenham Festival. Enough is enough, for the sake of the horses and racing’s image it’s time to stop.
Value Is Everythingamateurs don’t judge the fences as well as professionals
The same could be said of novice horses who are also often too keen for their own good. Do you want to bin all the novice hurdles and chases (and the Martin Pipe, conditional jockeys obviously not being as good as fully fledged pros)?
If you look at Royal Ascot, you won’t find an amateurs race and the same applies to a rece for apprentice jockeys.
100% with GingerTipster on this one. There was a thread asking what your ideal Cheltenham would be and, for me, this is it. I appreciate it’s likely to be an unpopular view in this forum but I’ve always hated this “National Velvet” mentality that rejoices in amateurs endangering themselves, their mounts and other runners. I hope Point-to-Points are back soon so they can enjoy their hobby but a review of their participation at top meetings, particularly Cheltenham, is long overdue. GT’s point about whip abuse, dangerous riding etc is also common sense. Of course a ban means far less to someone who rides for fun compared to someone whose livelihood depends on it.
It’s not just about the fences though, Green’. It’s not just about any one issue. It’s about so many issues adding up to a problem. Those issues don’t add up in novice races.
As far as the Martin Pipe goes: As far as I can see the evidence shows conditional jockeys riding to the rules in the Martin Pipe a lot more than amateurs do at the Festival. However, that may or may not be because there hasn’t been many races yet. Bans must be evidence based.
Value Is EverythingThere’s nothing wrong with a “faster run race“, Nathan. Problem comes with overly fast run races which result in overly tired (sometimes exhausted) horses… And you’re far more likely to see this happening in an amateur race because of both lack of experience and/or in particular (it seems deliberately) by not adhering to the rules.
Value Is EverythingIt would be interesting to know what professional jockeys make of “amateurs” like Mullins and O’Connor riding in open races and winning them, ensuring that no jockey gets the percentage of the prize money due to the winning rider.
Yes Nathan, “let’s attract new people to our sport“. People that are put off by jockeys seemingly deliberately taking no notice of whip rules. Some might say, bringing the game in to disrepute.
Value Is EverythingOne or two making less-than-accurate assertions about amateur riders and the world of Point-to-Point and Hunter Chasing, I feel.
Ever since I can remember (late 1970s) Pointing has been a nursery for future NH stars, both human and equine, and an autumnal years home for many an ex-NH horse.
And in more recent years, many Maidens have been quasi NH Sales-Breeze Ups, with winners from “selling yards” changing hands for significant sums – though nowhere near as big as in Irish Pointing, an industry so big it even got discussed in the Irish Parliament recently.
Outside of apprentice/conditional jockeys, though we all have our favourites and our bete noirs, the reality is that on average over the year the difference between the top professional jockeys and the journeymen is probably a couple of pounds per race.
In Pointing it’s more like a couple of STONE.
The least accomplished – invariably riding solely for their family – aren’t the best, but at the top end they are very good and often go on to become professionals.
Watch how the likes of ex-Point Millie Wonnacott, Lilly Pinchin and Page Fuller count the strides into every obstacle and rarely meet them wrong and ask yourself if the average conditional could do that?
And how do you think Bryony Frost got started?
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"But if the horse “wins” as a “result” of the jockey getting 7 days for whipping it you still get paid out…… That’s how the system is.
To say that amateurs put horses at an unacceptable level of risk because they don’t judge the fences as well as professionals is a dangerous road to go down. At a point to point meet there will be eight/nine races, all amateurs riding, all over fences, and inexperienced horses many of whom will be having their first run. Is that an acceptable level of risk?
One thing I agree with is that the threat of suspension for rules violations is not a strong enough deterrent for the amateur races, as the chance to win a race at Cheltenham far exceeds any negative impact from a suspension. A ban from riding at the following year’s festival may be a better dissuasion.
Your second paragraph is exactly my point. Even the other day Jack Tudor got 7 days after winning a neck on Newlands Cross at Chepstow (albeit that the whip offence was quite a way out), was the penalty proportionate to the gain ?
Amateurs are not missing cheltenham because of your misconceived perceptions ginge, there missing it because of a pandemic, so maybe you shouldnt tie a point up in that manner as if the reason is something else
They will be back
Also, newbies to the sport havent a clue in a race about a whip offence, 99% wouldnt even notice, so to say that puts people off is just more drivel
You have 0 stats to back up your arguements whatsoever, so you should be careful in acting like you do, especially pointing to the “finishing exhausted” statement, if a horse doesnt finish somehwat burned out/exhausted/tired (different ways of saying the same thing) they havent ran to there fitness level, this is the name of the game, there is no balance, its simple, get them fit and run them to their maximum capacity, the same as a human olympian in a race. Maybe your in the wrong game now if that doesnt sit well.
theres been many a gold cup and grand national ran, full of the most talented to ever sit on a horse, get it severely wrong.
You are 0 facts,100% conspiracy
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