- This topic has 104 replies, 22 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Yes cork. This is how it started for May. Who is now playing ablinder
C restrictions would be suicidal for the oaf now
Hopefully the utter dolt will be gone by summer
We cannot go on living like this. Chris whitty runs the country along with carrie
I hope he implodes
So almost 100 tories voted against these measures and Johnson is now toast.
How does that figure within your theory of it all being about “state control” and “authoritarianism?
What’s more likely?
Was it really because Johnson the well known libertarian (and opposition leader Starmer as well as his great friend (not) Sturgeon who both want to go further) together with pretty much every other western democratic leader in this world… all want state control and authoritarianism so much they’re willing to degrade their own economies?
OR
Johnson always knew there’d be a tory rebellion and yet he went through with it. What does that tell you?That Johnson knows the risk of our NHS / health service being overwhelmed needs to be minimised in a way that still tries to keep business as open for trade as much as possible?Value Is EverythingI really, REALLY, don’t like Boris Johnson, but the last thing I would accuse him of is being an authoritarian by nature.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"The rebellion was never going to succeed with Labour backing the government so everybody got what they wanted here. The Tories get the measures passed, the rebels gave Johnson a bloody nose and Labour can point to a massive split in the Tories.
As for the authoritarianism, leave that to the Home Secretary.
“How does that figure within your theory of it all being about “state control” and “authoritarianism?”
Not sure what you are saying?
Of course it is about increasing the power of the state over the individual. Vaccine passports clearly do not work in stopping the spread of a respiratory virus. Scotland, Wales and several European countries have so demonstrated. Their introduction will achieve nothing other than more power to officialdom.
These Conservative rebels have finally realised. 8 Labour, 10 Liberal Democrat and 2 Independent (including Corbyn) voted against as well, so good on them.
I think Johnson will be finished if he attempts to go further, like trying for mandatory vaccination. Starmer really needs to use whatever sense he has left. He could easily bring Johnson down by voting against because you can guarantee there will be even more Conservative rebels if Johnson goes down that road.
Neville Chamberlain won the Norway Debate despite 100 Conservative MPs either voting against or abstaining. He had the dignity to resign.
“State control” / Authoritarianism” is all about a leader and party enforcing strict obedience.
In this case our great leader can’t even get the obedience of his own party and is by your reckoning “toast”.
Value Is EverythingHe still got the legislation through with the media on board and the public doing what they are told.
The issues about his authoritarian government and his own personal authority over the Conservative Party are entirely different.
There are still a lot of Conservative MPs who are opposed to illiberal and ineffective measures such as vaccine passports. They just got no help from an Opposition which since March 2020 has forgotten how to oppose. Unless it means calling for even stricter measures even sooner, which appears to be it’s only policy.
There is a by-election on Thursday, where the Conservatives are defending a seat they won by about 20,000 votes just two years ago. If they lose, the pressure on Johnson can only increase. The problem the rebels have is who would replace him? Gove is even keener on turning the country into an authoritarian state.
So this State Control Authoritarian got the policy through only with the help of… the opposition.
Nope, doesn’t sound like a state control or an authoritarian to me…
Just each individual member of parliament voting for what he / she believes is best for the country.
If only it was always that way.
Value Is EverythingThis by-election isn’t going to tell us much at all.
Only that the country is fed up with all those involved in Party-gate.
Constituents can give a massive boot up the backside to this government WITHOUT ANY chance of the Conservatives losing governance or even losing their large majority.
Come off it, do you really think a confirmed brexiteer constituency would vote Liberal in any other circumstances?
Sod it, if I were a voter there I’d vote Liberal and I’m a Conservative brexiteer!
Value Is EverythingYou are focussing too much on individuals. Last night did reveal a deep truth about British politics now. On the most important issue which has faced the country since WW2, Britain is now in effect a one party state and Johnson is the leader of a National government, like Ramsay Macdonald and Stanley Baldwin in an earlier era. He might as well ask Starmer to join the Cabinet.
My only hope is the size of the rebellion may make Johnson proceed more carefully. Even Starmer must surely realise Johnson is in political difficulties. If he tries to proceed with a Plan C or mandatory vaccination, even more Conservative MPs will rebel and I doubt such measures would be popular with the public. Starmer could hardly be blamed for trying to inflict a defeat on Johnson in those circumstances. I doubt he would suffer any political consequences.
But the point about authoritarianism is: no one can seriously argue that we are as free as we once were now we have to show papers about our health status just to perform normal tasks. Ideally, politicians who crave power would go further still. I have no doubt they would love to extend passports to hospitality and even shops, like in Europe. But as I say, I do hope the size of rebellion will rein those tendencies in.
By-elections are bizarre. I doubt many of the Tory voters in a constituency which voted 57/43 Remain are thinking “we wish the government was more left wing.” But they may well be about to elect a batty Lib Dem, a party which wanted to reverse the Brexit vote without a second referendum!
“Only that the country is fed up with all those involved in Party-gate.”
I think the vote tomorrow will tell us something more specific than that. That many voters who normally support the Conservative Party (as less “big state” than Labour) can no longer stomach a PM who lies on a regular basis and who in general over-states and under-delivers. I am certainly in that category and simply will not vote Conservative again until there is a new leader.
“Last night did reveal a deep truth about British politics now. On the most important issue which has faced the country since WW2, Britain is now in effect a one party state”.
What absolute nonsense.
The question put to Parliament yesterday was effectively…
Does the member of parliament believe these measures will save lives?
THAT is how important the vote was.
Although I would disagree, I can understand if someone voted NO, that’s their prerogative.To say Britain is now a “one party state” because the opposition voted with the Conservative Government to (in their opinion) SAVE LIVES – is ridiculous.
Value Is Everything‘no one can seriously argue that we are as free as we once were now we have to show papers about our health status just to perform normal tasks.’
Many of those MPs who don’t want turn us into a ‘show us your papers’ country, are quite happy with the idea of ‘showing your papers’ in order to vote, despite voter fraud being almost zero. Hypocritical bastards the lot of them. That, along with criminalising protest and allowing the removal of people’s citizenship, leaving them effectively stateless is what everyone should be worried about.
It is not ridiculous. On a fundamental issue, the Opposition has failed to provide any scrutiny over the last two years. Its only difference seems to be it would have acted harder and faster.
If these MPs seriously believe vaccine passports will save lives, then they are even dimmer than I previously thought. There is not a shred of evidence they will do any such thing. None. Look to Scotland, Wales and Europe if you do not believe me.
But it will put an additional burden on business and it does give politicians and petty bureaucrats more power. How convenient for them. Even better when you con people and sneak it through by convincing them it is for their own good and safety. The hand maiden of tyrants, I believe Albert Camus described it.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
C.S Lewis
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.