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Hi RustyRails, I have not seen Darsi, but got sent a brochure/stud card for him (back in the day when a lot of studs were sending them out to any broodmare owner). He does look a gorgeous horse, and I think it was Ted Walsh who said he looked like a 3m chaser, when he ran at the Curragh. ‘They’ say that Polish Precedent can’t sire sires, so he may have suffered from that bias at stud. What fee did you see for him? Crepello – the CH winner was the only one ND free? Just shows that people need to keep an open mind. There is room for all.
Louise, Crepello and anynone else reading this. I’m very poor when it comes to reading pedigrees or even fully understanding inbreeding. But this is what I’ve found out while analyzing – as I would say – proper NH horses:
Kauto Star: No signs of Northern Dancer and his sire Village Star was 16 years old when he covered Kauto Relka
Master Minded: No Northern Dancer and Nikos sired him at the age of 21.
Denman: No Northern Dancer, his “daddy” Presenting was 7 when he covered Polly Puttens.
Vautour: No Northern Dancer and Robin Des Champs was 21 when he sired him.
Best Mate: No Northern Dancer and sired when Un Desperado was 11.It also appears to me that the older the parents the better for the horse. At least when it comes to longevity on the track. Anyway, I’m no expert, but I’d love to hear your views about the above mentioned pedigrees, only if you have the time.
You might have noticed that I have my own views about NH racing and its athletes and that the Champion Hurdle is not really my favorite race. I’d like to see fewer Flat bred horses jumping hurdles or fences that is why I had a look at the horses from above.
Thanks
Kauto Star: No signs of Northern Dancer and his sire Village Star was 16 years old when he covered Kauto Relka
Master Minded: No Northern Dancer and Nikos sired him at the age of 21.
Denman: No Northern Dancer, his “daddy” Presenting was 7 when he covered Polly Puttens.
Vautour: No Northern Dancer and Robin Des Champs was 21 when he sired him.
Best Mate: No Northern Dancer and sired when Un Desperado was 11.Thanks for that ERL
As you know throughout this thread I have thought Nearco is the stallion that is the main contributor, now his son Nasrullah sire of Neartic who in turn sire of Northern Dancer, Nasrullah is all over the horses you have named
Kauto Star….Nasrullah on both sides
Master Minded…Nasrullah both sides
Denman……..Nasrullah both sides
Vautour…….Nasrullah again
Best Mate Nasrullah againI dont really agree with the sires age being a contributor to soundness, maybe the stallions just got better mares as they got older, once they had proved themselves as good stallions
Well that’s my thoughts for what they are worth, probably a load of tosh that should be ignored…..
I suppose by its nature (takes time to produce them), NH stallions are frequently old when their best progeny come through, and then as RR says, they get better mares. I wholeheartedly agree with you, Ex Ruby Light, on the influx of Flat breds – while the two codes are intrinsically linked, we are seeing fewer and fewer separate/recognised NH lines (over here anyway – France is a bit different). I wouldn’t get into an argument with anyone over it, but personally wouldn’t cross the road to watch the CH. Then there is the nonsense that is listed/graded bumpers. A ‘jumper’ shouldn’t be able to get black type for never leaving the ground. RR’s list of non-ND stallions looks like something produced by Amadan/Kinscem/Diomed (depending on the forum)? He/she has some really interesting data.
Thanks for your replies.
While searching through the “Thoroughbred Database” I had the chance to look at other interesting pedigrees (I guess all of them all interesting in some way).
Model of consistency Florida Pearl also free of Northern Dancer, ultra tough Suny Bay just the same.
Nick Dundee – a former Magnier horse – maybe the only one they’ve ever owned to be free of ND.St. Pirran, Sporazene, Thisthatandtother, Sleeping Night, Star De Mohaisson, Taranis, Chapoturgeon, Al Ferof, Lac Montana all ND free, all Festival winners and all of them trained by the great man Paul Nicholls.
Without trying to be boring, there is so much to learn from pedigrees and big-race winners. What I don’t understand is why so many owners, breeders and trainers opt for the light-framed horse. It isn’t wrong, if you want to get a decent Flat horse and I shouldn’t comment things I have no clue about. But changing codes and expecting a 2nd career over obstacles just doesn’t work if you only bring Flat speed to the track.
That’s why I disrespect the CH and the Stayers so much. They are only there for the ones who’d never jump a fence properly. I don’t see much significance for the NH game in either race and I would appreciate a few more conditions races at the Festival.
I wouldn’t mind a 2m4f bumper at the Festival and also more often during the winter, for the ones who come slower to hand. But it shouldn’t be a Grade 1 race (at Cheltenham) at all. But, what do I know?
On the Cheltenham Festival, I looked at win and place records for the top 10 NH sires (from a googled list produced by Thoroughbred Owner Breeder & Pacemaker. I am assuming the list is up to date. The site I use, Horseracebase.com, has data going back to 1997.
List is top sire downward. First figure after sire name is win %, second is place %. Where the sire has had fewer than 100 runners at the Cheltenham Festival, I’ve put the total number of runners in brackets:
KING’S THEATRE 9.55/22.29
PRESENTING 7.69/22.56
KAYF TARA 6.31/17.12
FLEMENSFIRTH 5.56/20.37
BENEFICIAL 5.22/16.52
MILAN 7.25/28.99 (69)
OSCAR 8.33/23.61
WESTERNER 9.09/15.91 (44)
MIDNIGHT LEGEND 5.45/25.45 (55)
ROBIN DES CHAMPS 30.23/34.88 (43)
AVERAGE 8.26/22.1
Robin Des Champs looks far and away the best, but his 13 wins were achieved by just 4 horses:
Sir Des Champs (2)
Vautour (3)
Un Temps Pour Tout (2)
Quevega (6)Robin Des Champs was a winning hurdler himself in France, so that might help his progeny a bit. And the four mentioned horses all won at trips ranging from 2m4f to almost 3m2f. All of them are also ND free compared and were consistent performers at the highest level for at least three seasons and none of them was properly suited by Aintree. Quevega never ran there and Sir des Champs only once in the GN.
Well the list of sires above really doesn’t come as any surprise, they are exactly the sires that the market wants to buy their progeny from at the sales, so very very pricey to buy, along with probably along with another 20 up and coming sires.
One thing that is missing in the thread, so far it is not just about the stallion,s the mare plays a big role as well. Breeding horses is not an exact science, as much as statistics may help, you will never find the “Holy Grail” of matingHow do you know, if you have a mare you have of good size that had won say 3 chases, then crossed with best proven NH sire there is, that it is going to produce a lovely big colt/fill,y and grow to the the size of Denman, answer is, you don’t, if the foal is straight at birth and of either sex, and the broodmare is of good nature , then you think you have won the lottery. If by chance it made 16 hands and travelled like a bullet, won the champion hurdle I would be doing somersaults and probably be having palpitations…..what a dream to have, so in my view breeding a winning selling hurdler would still please me…
That is very true, about the mares, and I don’t think anyone is being snobbish about winners, or trying to give advice on how to breed one. It’s probably better to at least try and breed a Denman, though. The only point I am making is that we need diversity. It’s healthy, and it’s vanishing. It will vanish more from now on, because (up to now) it has been provided by the broodmare herd, but that will start to change too.
I totally agree Louise, and I think I have bred the next Denham (joking of course) I do try with my mares to diversify as much as you can these days, but it’s very difficult I have to say.
Good to see this thread picking up some more interest.
Joe – the sire tables are organised by prize money and winners. So anything with a large number of runners and a reasonable number of winners of reasonable races will look good. The table (and the sales results that follow) drives the big books business that is NH – and this is why this list of names appears. It also works (conveniently I would say) to keep away from the headlines the sires who have smaller crops, fewer runners and fewer winners – even though on % terms they might do much, much better. So think, as just one example, the Sandmason’s of this world, currently running on a 100% strike rate (admittedly from only 2 runners, but one of them was Summerville Boy), or something like Vinnie Roe (sire of the late Neon Wolf). This is why I’m interested in trying to get something that is a fairer representation of sire performance at the festivals. As it is though, and as you say, your list has Robin des Champs way out at the top. Interestingly, his runners didn’t do too well at Leopardstown, but he is yet another from the Nearco/Nasrullah/Mill Reef sire line that is also behind Stowaway (see above), and which is also behind Kauto and Vautour ,and the broodmare sire of Master Minded and Best Mate (see Ex RL’s post). So, the question is why is it that this line (which has produced such stellar NH chasers – ones that we’ve all loved) and which does really well on performance stats, is only barely clinging on as a sire line in NH breeding in GB and Ireland? And why is it that the NH studs are standing more and more and more from the Sadler’s Wells’ sire line (and increasingly sons of Danehill)?
NH racing needs diversity in both sire lines and in the broodmare herd. As Louise says, the broodmare herd has been the means to that thus far, but what we currently have is a broodmare herd that increasingly has ND on one side of its pedigree (and often top and bottom) and a set of stallions that are exactly the same i.e. NH breeding has become increasingly indistinct from flat breeding. That, I think, is why we are getting more and more hurdlers and dual purpose (flat/hurdles) NH horses. I also think it’s why we are seeing more and more horses that don’t seem brave enough to jump a fence, and so are reverted to hurdles. For those of us who love NH racing, it matters that the stock that is being produced can do what we love to watch (for me, primarily 2 – 3.5m chasing) – which is why this thread matters.
ps – Ex RL, you forgot Sprinter – another who has no ND in him (AQPS dam); UDS too.
Sorry Titus, I have to admit that Sprinter Sacre is a very shocking omission, since he fits the perfect definition of a true NH superstar. And I should have included Un De Sceaux as well, but it was just a brief “investigation”.
You also notice that all these horses (Sprinter, Kauto, the Pearl and so on) didn’t spend much time hurdling in their careers, though they would have been head and shoulders above the competition as well.It is also interesting to mention that Sprinter Sacre’s sire Network has sired a lot of chase winners. 31 from 47 (equals 66% of the individual runners) of his offspring have won a chase and they have a healthy strike rate of around 21% when running over fences. King’s Theatre has only 16%, Presenting just 13%, Kayf Tara 14%, Flemensfirth 12%. I don’t understand why there is no demand for him at all. Does he have fertility problems or is there anything else wrong with him?
By the way, this year the Stayers Hurdle seems to accommodate even more of my “chasing failures”.
But I don’t want to get too much into that since there are so many supporters of this race around here and I hate to see anybody feeling offended.Desert Orchid another ND free superstar….
I see the first four horses with wind ops listed – by Doyen (Sadler’s Wells), Old Vic (Sadler’s Wells), Yeats (Sadler’s Wells), and out of a Beat Hollow mare (Sadler’s Wells). I wonder if this will become a theme.
Interesting observation Louise – let’s see.
Relatedly, the RP has an enlightening Q&A piece today discussing the French NH breeding scene, and the up and coming stallions there (none of which are from the SW male line). ‘Forward thinking breeders’ in Ireland and England are apparently sending their mares there.
That’s a great piece, Titus – use jumpers to breed jumpers, and realise that they are not slow. Breeders need to take note.
Interesting to see that Cokoriko who will have his first crop of hurdlers this season was a winning hurdler himself. He won 2 out of 4 at Auteuil beating the useful Milord Thomas (a multiple G1 winner in France) and Un Temps Pour Tout (twice a winner at the Festival) in the same race.
So we have to admit that he had huge hurdling potential himself.
From the racing post this morning
“The BHA, which has so far been notified of 226 wind operations, on Thursday revealed that failure to comply with the new instruction will result in trainers being dealt with on a penalty scale that ranges from a £290 fine to a referral to its London headquarters.Be interesting to get that list and look at the breeding?
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