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Cobblers. Seems to me you want the right to freedom of speech but with an exemption from criticism certificate to go with it.
You found the jokes about Thalidomide and Alzheimers on the other thread funny. Good for you. I didn’t and now I’ve said as much. In fact, I find it hard to imagine how anyone could. That isn’t a pretence. I genuinely don’t understand how those jokes can be funny.
In other words, this can be called a disagreement. No-one’s going to jail and no-one’s being persecuted. Gosh you libertarians can be awfully thin-skinned sometimes.
What are you talking about, Andrew?
I was refering to Max’s post on the subject – not yours. Criticise away if you want. All I have said is that I refute the assertions Max has made. Is that being thin-skinned? You would appear to think so, whereas I would say it’s merely part of the debate.
PS. I find it hard to believe how anyone could find Jim Davidson or Phil Jupitus funny, but they do. However, I don’t bracket such people as respectively a) racists or b) fat, annoying gits, just because people share a sense of humour with them.
It was the first line of your post that I found puzzling – the bit about jokes being one of the last areas where we can say whatever we want. Self-evidently it is true, since no-one censored that thread and presumably none of the participants have been arrested.
But we can say what we want the rest of the time too, can’t we? We can say what we want but we don’t always. Sometimes, to consider the feelings of others, we temper what we say. We all do that. Nothing more than politeness or courtesy.
In short, freedom of speech doesn’t come into it because no-one is suggesting that people who laugh at sick jokes should be thrown into jail or that they shouldn’t be free to tell or laugh at said humour.
And I only entered the discussion because I found Kevin’s definition of bad taste confusing.
Are Richard Pryors jokes about white people and stuttering chinamen (****** brilliant i must say…) racist?
The only truth in comedy is that Vic Reeves is not funny
I am suprised at what makes some people laugh but I strongly dislike the idea that someone else should feel it is their role to sit in judgement about what I find amusing..
Nonsense Clivex.
I merely stated that I thought the jokes were in bad taste. Which I thought they were. I drew no conclusions about the people who told or laughed at them. Or if I did, I kept said conclusions to myself. Out of courtesy.
I am of course, saddened to have incurred your strong dislike. Yer big girl’s blouse.
Fair enough. In which case I apologise for wheeling out the high horse. And to Grasshopper too.
Arguments about taste are sooner or later going to boil down to opinions about where the line is.
I’ve said what I think, probably at too great a length so I’ll belt up on the subject.
Charlon Heston again announced today that he had alzheimers
– George Clooney had to apologise for that one but Hestons wife thought it was pretty funny apparently
You cannot ban humour. Humour reflects society and doesnt dictate it. Irish jokes died away a long time ago as have most racist jokes, because we thankfullymoved on (although theres a whole file of australian jokes knocking about these days…). The idea that our thoughts and impulses can be regulated, however offensive they may be to some, is ludicrous
Jokes about death and illness more accurately reflect fear of the same rather than any lack of compassion or desire to "bully". Ive often thought that black humour shows a degree of senstivity to the situation..
The ones you need to worry about are those that dont laugh at anything (or vic reeves)
Kevin, I did delete my post initially as I called LM a ****. That was stupid. I don’t disagree with the sentiment, but he’s 120 miles away and getting angry with people you don’t know personally is pathetic, I accept that.
Your joke about Thalidomide was personally offensive to me. I consider jokes about Alzheimers, Brittle Bone and other disabilities to be similarly offensive.
Bulwark derides my opinion on Karma. Fair enough. I know few things as powerful as Karma, though I am prepared to accept not everyone follows this rule in life. Poker players call it "living right".
You live right; when it matters, the gods are with you rather than against you. That’s karma.
As for the bullying, I studied the psychology and sociology of humour in my Masters degree and would not have addressed the issue had I not had some rudimentary understanding of the theory.
Telling a joke and critically, laughing at a joke at someone elses expense who cannot defend themselves against that joke is bullying. End of. By laughing, you are complicit. Bullying isn’t about kicking the living s**t out of some runty nerd in a cloakroom mob handed. It’s about making them feel small. It’s about the diminuation of a person’s self esteem. It’s about the sniggering.
This philosophy is now being taught in schools in PSHE lessons. It’s not just my opinion – it’s a whole philosophy on bullying. I’m hoping a parent will support me in this.
Grasshopper, you call my opinion preposterous. I call your opinion preposterous. We could play tennis forever on that one and I am not going to budge on this issue for one second. Bill Hicks taking the p**s out of powerful Republicans and greedy celebrities is a completely different dynamic to someone laughing at an Alzheimer’s sufferer who can scarcely remember how to dress themselves in the morning.
He just wouldn’t do it – name an example where he did? – and neither would the racist Bernard Manning who famously ripped the p**s out of Ben Elton for a sketch about wheelchair users.
Let me ask you all a question. Did anyone see the comments on the Betfair Forum about a certain trainer yesterday? Thread after thread of the most vile filth I think I’ve ever read. I can quite easily see why you might consider me pofaced but surely we don’t want to go down THAT road?
Do we?
So, regardless about our respective positions, how is the reputation of The Racing Forum enhanced by jokes about people with Alzheimer’s Syndrome.
Max,
I have no wish to get into any arguements with you.
Your racist **** comment aimed at lolly’s mate was clearly malicious. I respect that you withdrew it. Then when you try to take some moral high ground on bullying you may understand my confusion why some childish jokes are taken as offensive?
The saying "people in glass houses should not throw stones" comes to mind. Maybe we are all a bit imperfect sometimes. I know I was wrong once. Around this time last year I think
Clive, Vic Reeves & Bob crease me out!
Bulwark derides my opinion on Karma. Fair enough. I know few things as powerful as Karma, though I am prepared to accept not everyone follows this rule in life. Poker players call it "living right".
You live right; when it matters, the gods are with you rather than against you. That’s karma.
I wasnt ridiculing you max, I personally just didnt have a problem with the other thread and at first I thought you were over-reacting and perhaps reading more malicious intent into the posts than was intended.
As I stated on the other thread, bad taste humour is just my sense of humour (as I think it is just in my nature to try to see the funny side in any situation, regardless of how tragic that situaton may be) and it is clearly the same with quite a few others, but there is a time and a place for it, and arguably through the anonimity of people on the internet, it is not the place.
At the same time, I know from experience that there are two types of people who are offended by bad taste humour, those who have been or have been close to someone who has been affected by conditions, jikes of which, come under the backet of bad taste humour. The other sort of people who take offence are the Mary Whitehouse censorship brigade.
I dont know which of those categorys you fall into max and I dont really need to know. I removed my posts from the other thread on the off chance that you or anyone else have genuine purpose to feel aggrieved by the other thread, because I, like probably everyone else who posted, had only posted on the other thread in the perhaps naive belief that no-one had call to be offended.
I dont disagree with your beliefs about Karma, as my own beliefs arent that far away from yours, the clear difference however is that I can see grounds for comedy, without malice, in almost any situation.
IMO its one thing to see the funny side in somewhat tragic circumstances, but it is another yet again to run round at a Mencap function, dishing out "wedgies" and "McFlys". And, in that, lies the real issue, in that most people draw the line somehwere in between but you, for reason x,y or z appear to draw a line over the whole issue, and that is not necessarily a bad thing, as you are probably less likely to burn in hell than most of us.
At the end of the day, IMO the other thread does leave potential grounds for some to be offended, that wasnt my intention, and I have removed my input to the thread for that reason.
I thought in these times of credit-crunch and all that we are allowed to take the piss. When we’re all losing our jobs and homes it’s nice to know some are far worse off than us – be it physical, mental or financial.
Edited to remove my poor effort to give Max something to be offended by.
This philosophy is now being taught in schools in PSHE lessons. It’s not just my opinion – it’s a whole philosophy on bullying. I’m hoping a parent will support me in this.
.. both of my kids are having these lessons and according to them they are a waste of time. You can’t see the PSHE teacher at parents-night because they don’t teach them anything. The kids still laugh at gays and pakis and my lad runs around the house shouting .. ‘sup niggah’ .. I blame 50cent for that though.
The wife and myself don’t pick the kids up for this kind of language or opinions that we don’t agree with because the State has taken it upon itself to do that part of my job. I just wish them the best of luck with that.
Max, you are clearly unfamiliar with Hicks’ routine where he advocates using the terminally-ill as stunt people in films.
The difference between Hicks, and the type of ‘joke’ we have witnessed on the threads here, is that Hicks uses his humour in that routine to ultimately decry those who would let their elderly relatives rot-away in a nursing home.
The routine appears outwardly cruel to the terminally-ill, but does it constitute bullying? You tell me.
I like you Max, but I personally couldn’t give two shits about the fact that you studied the pyschology of humour as part of your Masters.
You can’t tell me what is funny, and you can’t call me a bully based on what I chose to laugh at – not when my every other action in life points to me being entirely the opposite.
For me, a bully is someone who might….say…..go crazy at his son, simply because he wants to go and see Man Utd rather than his local team.
I trust we understand each other, and can agree that it does no-one any good to jump to too many conclusions about the people we encounter electronically.
For me, a bully is someone who might….say…..go crazy at his son, simply because he wants to go and see Man Utd rather than his local team.
I would cut the little git out of my will and refuse to talk to him forever is he did that
And quite right too. Tears or no tears
Telling a joke and critically, laughing at a joke at someone elses expense who cannot defend themselves against that joke is bullying. End of. By laughing, you are complicit. Bullying isn’t about kicking the living s**t out of some runty nerd in a cloakroom mob handed. It’s about making them feel small. It’s about the diminuation of a person’s self esteem. It’s about the sniggering.
This philosophy is now being taught in schools in PSHE lessons. It’s not just my opinion – it’s a whole philosophy on bullying. I’m hoping a parent will support me in this.
I agree. It’s a good thing that schools/the State are taking a closer interest in this. Our daughter is nearly five and we’re gently trying to encourage her to consider other people’s feelings. It’s what I was taught when I was young, but when I got to school, I buckled under peer pressure. It was easier to go along with cruelty than to stand up against it. Not something I’m proud of. So many unpleasant social habits are formed in school, in fact my experience of working in offices is that they are very often extensions of school life. It’s easy to sneer at initiatives or to say that bullying is character building (not that anyone here has said that) but I don’t think school should be about survival of the fittest. If the schools, working with parents, can encourage kids to be better citizens, then surely that is a good thing.
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