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Black Sam has got it absolutely right. They wouldn’t move the Guineas or the Derby because they are famous races that people care about.
Champion Stakes is just another cog in the vast machine, only called ‘Champion’ so trainers don’t feel too bad about entering horses not quite good enough to be considered for the Arc or Breeders Cup.
Throwing money at it won’t give it any more prestige & takes money away from grass roots racing.
Oh wait! Jim McGrath is right! Damn.
Seems to me that the Champion Stakes is too close to the Breeders Cup for the top 10 furlong horses to get involved anyway. Recent fields have not exactly been ‘Champion’ have they ? Is there a positibility that a move/reschedule could actually create a positive impact to the ‘pattern’ ? The Champion Stakes in its current form doesn’t really capture the immagination from where I’m sitting.
A bit hard to please perhaps? In the 2010 Champion there were 6 Group 1 wimnners of 11 Group 1 races. In 2009 there were 7 Group 1 winners of 13 Group 1 Races, and the winner went on to run third in the Breeders Cup Classic. I would love to watch a "Sea The Stars" in it every year, but that’s just not realistic. Moving it to Ascot is unlikely to attract the very best. Giving it Japanese and Hong Kong size prize money might have a better chance. But then again, the Japan Cup and Hong Kong million pound races don’t capture my imagination either. Snow Fairy must be a lovely filly to own, but not exactly championship material.
- Total Posts 17716
Champion Stakes is just another cog in the vast machine, only called ‘Champion’ so trainers don’t feel too bad about entering horses not quite good enough to be considered for the Arc or Breeders Cup.
Throwing money at it won’t give it any more prestige & takes money away from grass roots racing.
You couldn’t be more wrong. In the 1960’s and 1970’s the Champion Stakes was one of the most prestigious races in the calendar, well named, and funded accordingly. It was the autumn equivalent to the Eclipse and King George, and every bit as important as the former.
Both races have now declined through neglect, and through dilution given competition from two
new
Group 1 races, the International at York (inaugurated 1972) and Prince of Wales’s Stakes at Ascot (first run in its modern form as late as 1964).
Removing the Champion’s unique configuration will prove another nail in its coffin, at the same time as further diluting the QE2, another race seemingly on the skids. If you can’t see why this matters, then you’ve sold your soul Anthony!
Yes, Ramonti, Ravens Pass, George Washington, and Rip Van Winkle would all attest to the QE2 being "on the skids".
Are you making it up as you go along, Pinza?
- Total Posts 17716
Yes, Ramonti, Ravens Pass, George Washington, and Rip Van Winkle would all attest to the QE2 being "on the skids".
Are you making it up as you go along, Pinza?
My reply could be just two words:
Poet’s Voice!
My point is that this race is no longer the highly competitive Championship race that it used to be in the 1980’s and 1990’s. More often than not, it’s a small-field uncompetitive "coronation" for the already-established European Champion Miler, or (worse) a tune-up for the Breeders Cup Mile.
Running the Champion Stakes on the same day, on the same course and (nearly) the same distance will further dilute its uncompetitive nature. And if a race becomes progressively uncompetitive it is,
ipso facto
, on the skids.
The prosecution rests….
My reply could be just two words: Poet’s Voice!
I’d say that’s your weakest reply on here yet, Pinza.
Poets Voice proved himself a good Group 1 horse at Ascot, backed up by a very solid time. Did we write off the Derby the year Sir Percy won it? Your a great man/woman with your racing history but you seem to have forgotten the great victors of recent years.
True, Goldikova, Canford Cliffs and Paco Boy didn’t participate in the latest renewal, but
how on earth
is the Champion Stakes
not
being moved supposed to change that scenario next year?
- Total Posts 17716
Poets Voice proved himself a good Group 1 horse at Ascot, backed up by a very solid time. Did we write off the Derby the year Sir Percy won it? Your a great man/woman with your racing history but you seem to have forgotten the great victors of recent years.
True, Goldikova, Canford Cliffs and Paco Boy didn’t participate in the latest renewal, but
how on earth
is the Champion Stakes
not
being moved supposed to change that scenario next year?
I know, Cav – and in fact I’m something of a Poet’s Voice fan myself! None the less, it’s true that what he’s actually achieved on the racecourse makes him good Gp2 standard at best.
Nonetheless, the starry names you’ve listed as missing in 2010 tell us plenty about what’s going missing from the QE2’s reputation.
Horses of
Rip Van Winkle
‘s class and versatility, who might formerly have been considered for
both
the QE2 and the Champion (c.f.
Rakti
who won both races 2003/4, or of course
Bosra Sham
who very nearly did the double in 1996), will now no longer have the permutation available – to the impoverishment of the breed.
Go Gettem Pinza . put that Limerick ****** in his box (we still love ya Cav ) as he is just playing devils advocate as always
Cav serious now , these idiots in RFC are changing the whole landscape and wait for more stuff to hit the fan this year ….why …because they have to justify their existence …and why do the courses go along with them ….because they dont give a damn as long as the till bells chime ……filthy Lucre,,,,,nuff said
get with it man , the game is under threat
Ricky
You couldn’t be more wrong. In the 1960’s and 1970’s the Champion Stakes was one of the most prestigious races in the calendar, well named, and funded accordingly. It was the autumn equivalent to the Eclipse and King George, and every bit as important as the former.
You’ve answered your own question there… ‘was’ Was one of the most prestigious races during the 60’s & 70’s. Otherwise known as 40 to 50 years ago.
Ask your man on the street what the Guineas or the Derby is & more often than not they’d get something close to the correct answer.
Ask them what the Champion Stakes is & you may very well get, ‘what Wayne Rooney likes to eat with chips.’And besides, for all we know, they could be talking forty or fifty years from now saying ‘back in 2011, that Champion Stakes was the most prestigious race etc etc’ All tradition starts somewhere.
The game as we know it at present is under threat, Ricky, no argument there. Its under threat for one reason and one reason only, access to gambling money.
Last chance saloon comes in the form of The Tote buyout. If it goes to anyone other than the Charitable Foundation bidders (who then turn it into a low takeout serious alternative to the bookamkers and exchanges) then I cant see how racing can continue in anything resembling its current form.
I’m far less concerned about the upper end of the game than many, because I believe there will always be Kings, Queens, Princes, tycoons and the idle rich, who will want to race thoroughbred horses regardless. They also have one of their own, Paul Roy, doing their bidding for them.
I haven’t heard a murmur from any bloodstock people voicing concerns about the breed, on the back of the RFC initiative, or from any top trainer, upset about having to run their horse around a bend.
The gambling money is the only issue. Solve that and you solve everything.
Rgds
CLARE
******.
- Total Posts 17716
You’ve answered your own question there… ‘was’ Was one of the most prestigious races during the 60’s & 70’s. Otherwise known as 40 to 50 years ago.
Ask your man on the street what the Guineas or the Derby is & more often than not they’d get something close to the correct answer.
Ask them what the Champion Stakes is & you may very well get, ‘what Wayne Rooney likes to eat with chips.’And besides, for all we know, they could be talking forty or fifty years from now saying ‘back in 2011, that Champion Stakes was the most prestigious race etc etc’ All tradition starts somewhere.
Well the 70’s were only 32 years ago by my reckoning!
I wish I shared your faith in this mythical Man on the Street. Ask him about the Derby and he’ll think you’re talking about Manchester United v. Manchester City. Talk to him about the Guineas and he’ll think you’re offering him a pint (sorry, schooner) of the Black Stuff.
That man is really no guide to what we ought to consider important – after all, he thinks that Racing consists of the Grand National and nothing else.
As for "new traditions" I haven’t heard anyone defending the RFC change on the grounds that it will
boost
the prestige of the Champion Stakes itself, have you? The airy persiflage they spout is all about this wonderful entity called "Champions Day" of which their New Champion Stakes is only one component.
It’s a meaningless, new race which does not have a logical place in either the pattern or the British racing calendar. It is not the Champion Stakes and never could be, except nominally.
This is about the
Pattern
, Anthony, and one race’s place in it. My defence, believe it or not, is not of "tradition", which tends to mean "what I remember when I was young", but about continuity, gradual change and organic development – the things that give the Pattern the bedrock strength it has. Change is good. Random tinkering is stupid.
Cav , you have a point indeed , nobody is jumping around as a result of the tinkering with tradition …and rest assured more is to come …except Jim McGrath and a few others , so credit where it’s due
Regarding the tote I firmly believe it will end up in the arms of the bookies …and where will that leave us , as you have alluded to , its creek territory without a paddle
Meanwhile racing burns … Roy and Topping still shout across the table …..
sorry for the Limerick slight ….mea maxima culpa …..
Ricky
- Total Posts 17716
Cav , you have a point indeed , nobody is jumping around as a result of the tinkering with tradition …and rest assured more is to come …except Jim McGrath and a few others , so credit where it’s due
I’m not sure there
is
more to come. BHA have expended a large chunk of their budget in paying the RFC mountain to come forth with a mouse which has only succeeded in exciting mockery (Nick Luck), anger (Jim McGrath and many others) or at best a lukewarm shrug of "so what" (most people). They are in my opinion increasingly unlikely to keep bankrolling this piffle after "Champions Day" falls like a damp rocket from the autumnal skies.
Regarding the tote I firmly believe it will end up in the arms of the bookies …and where will that leave us , as you have alluded to , its creek territory without a paddle
Agreed: if one tenth of the energy and finance expended on RFC had been focused on viability reports for taking over the Tote, Racing would not be facing the theft of … not just the family silverware, but the family itself.
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