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Your appraisal of Inglis Drever as a ‘mid 160s performer’ is interesting as, the last time I checked, 172 didn’t fall between 160 and 169. That may be my state school education serving me poorly, as it clearly does with regard to discussions about ‘value’ (although I hope the maths degree makes up for it), but I get the feeling you’re doing the horse somewhat of an injustice. He doesn’t travel at all well in his races, yet has beaten the best of the staying division over the last 3 years. The key is that he only ever does what he needs to to win, but is quite clearly capable of a good deal better – he was pulling away from Kasbah Bliss comfortably toward the line last week.
Why should such a horse not be considered great simply because he does what he has to to beat decent opposition, rather than trouncing his rivals a la Master Minded?
My appraisal of Inglis Drever is based on Timeform ratings and not official figures. I recognise ID does not travel well and has been the stayers champion in three years. He might be capable of better. But horses can not be rated on what they might have achieved, especially when they are "all out" to achieve a length win. If you rate ID "great" then Kasbah etc. must be rated as nearly great, they are not.
To answer your question
As I said in my previous post, a horse who only beats an average (or even three average) fields by a length, does not deserve to be rated "Great", admirable horse he may be. How can a horse be rated Great when others who have put up better performances (ability wise) are not?Ginge
Value Is EverythingMaybe Ashley Brook is very tricky to train but I don’t think his trainer has excelled himself either.
Why wasn’t he stepped up to 3m at some stage?
Nickname is another one who this applies to. After not getting his ground over here for the big 2m races for the last few years, why on earth didn’t he run in the Tingle Creek, Victor Chandler & Queen Mother this year when conditions would have suited?
I agree with what you are saying about Ashley Brook – in fact I think you are being pretty kind to the trainer. I suspect a fair few owners would have moved the horse. While the horse was still in his prime I wrote to the trainer – the only time I have written to a trainer – querying why the horse wasn’t being tried over further. The letter was never acknowledged. Since then the horse has been hitting his head against a brick wall over two miles and I think the deterioration is in no small part down to the way the horse has been campaigned. Now we will never know if two and a half miles or further was actually his ideal trip.
Exciting news today that they are considering the 2m chase at Punchestown for MM- he gets a 7lb allowance in it as a 5-y-o. Hope he travels. Will be a Fidlayesque price if he does!
I think with Ashley Brook it does not matter at all what distance the race is. The National Spirit was over further, result just the same.
AB ran poorly several times this season. Since the Old Roan he’s run asthough something is hurting. Has jumped poorly and badly left, something he did not do before (usually a bold, straight jumper).
Kevin Bishop deserves credit for his hanling of this horse over the years, but I hope Ashley gets a long break now.Ginge
Value Is EverythingWill anything take MM on at Punchestown?
Where is Azulejo when you need him?
Ginge
Value Is EverythingI do believe Master Minded will be just as good over three miles in time and will win a Gold Cup. His sire Nikos was of course responsible for another Nicholls two miler in Cenkos but he was also responsible for Aintree runner up Encore Un Peu and Betfred bridesmaid Eric’s Charm. Couple that with his damsire Garde Royale, sire of Aintree runner up Royal Auclair, conqueror of Denman Nicanor and Festival winner Garde Champetre and his pedigree coupled with his undoubted class will see him flourish over longer, of that I have little doubt.
At the moment Ginge I think you’re right but I believe Anthony Bromley who is about THE best judge of an animal within the Bloodstock Industry also believes that when connections feel the time is right he will make that transition very easily.
Best Mate was extremely good over two when he started out over fences and would have gone for the Arkle had F&M not been around, Kicking King went the two mile route before he "grew up" but MM is still a baby and has achieved so much more than those two mentioned already. Once he grows up he is the heir to Kauto’s and Denman’s thrown.
And when you see the chasers of tomorrow i.e. the staying novice hurdlers at the Festival, none of them stand out as potential rivals to MM. They are all much of a muchness with very little between them. The path to GC glory in 2 years seems open.
Pure fantasy. This is a seriously fast horse and I’ll be stunned if he’s ever asked to go further than 2 1/2m- why would you? It’ll be Tingle Creek and a couple more 2 milers before an attempt to defend his 2m crown.
Not fantasy at all. He will undoubtedly be campaigned over two miles next season and defend his crown but connections will attempt further at some stage and my belief is that he will prove just as effective. I wouldn’t be at all surprised that following next year’s Festival he will be asked the question over 2m 4f in the Melling.
He does look like he could handle further but I am in agreement that I dont think for a second that they will step him up at present, he "stays out" 2miles perfectly with give underfoot, looking at him I would say that he would stay 2m4f a doddle, but why would you take the most impressive 2 mile chaser in some time up in distance and risk blunting his turn of foot, which doesn’t look to be his main strength as it is.
Anthony Bromley – Not someone I know a lot about but he definitely appears a very important cog in Nicholls success.
MM is just one of many he seems to have found. Nicholls certainly seems able to improve them as well!!
He’s got so much speed why not run him in the King George,……..
….followed by the Irish St Leger and Arc!!!
Its not speed he has, it’s pace. He hasn’t won any of his races this term through any brilliant turn of foot. He just goes a really fast pace from start to finish, he did appear to take it up a slight gear when ruby gave him a shake off the turn in the Champ Chase but only slightly faster than he was already going.
It was also notciable in his game spirit that when they messed about at the start ruby took him straight to the front to inject pace into the race, the horse is not a speedy sort by any means.
The king george is a speedy race, much more so than the arc, as it can often come on firm gd/fm ground and usually attracts a weaker field than the arc which then usually results in a slow early gallop and a fast finish. but the king george has finished off a few decent 1m4f flat horses in the past (montjeu, doyen and hurricane run were never the same after running in the king george) and if I had a brilliant 2 mile chaser who thrived on cut, I wouldn’t even consider it for a second.
Masterminded definitely wouldn’t want to race on good to firm hasn’t the turn of foot to get competetive, would have to shave about a second or two per furlong off what hes running at presently and would probably pick up an injury in the process as he has a knee action. Even the Leger and Arc would look very dodgy choices.
When a horse has just won a Champion Chase hard held by 19L, why is there the sudden clamour for him to step up in trip?
I’m all for the aggressive campaigning of these great horses but it’s crazy IMO especially at this stage of his career.
We’ve got Denman/Kauto at 3m+ so lets enjoy MM at 2m for now.
Its not speed he has, it’s pace. He hasn’t won any of his races this term through any brilliant turn of foot. He just goes a really fast pace from start to finish, he did appear to take it up a slight gear when ruby gave him a shake off the turn in the Champ Chase but only slightly faster than he was already going.
It was also notciable in his game spirit that when they messed about at the start ruby took him straight to the front to inject pace into the race, the horse is not a speedy sort by any means.
The king george is a speedy race, much more so than the arc, as it can often come on firm gd/fm ground and usually attracts a weaker field than the arc which then usually results in a slow early gallop and a fast finish. but the king george has finished off a few decent 1m4f flat horses in the past (montjeu, doyen and hurricane run were never the same after running in the king george) and if I had a brilliant 2 mile chaser who thrived on cut, I wouldn’t even consider it for a second.
Masterminded definitely wouldn’t want to race on good to firm hasn’t the turn of foot to get competetive, would have to shave about a second or two per furlong off what hes running at presently and would probably pick up an injury in the process as he has a knee action. Even the Leger and Arc would look very dodgy choices.
I was being ‘tongue in cheek’
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