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I thought you were refering to him being about as good as BC full stop
You must have missed the big PS in my post:
PS I think SP is a better horse than Blue Canari and, although RPR gave BC 118 for both the Jockey Club and the Arc, I’d have him a lot more than 3lbs behind Percy.
3lbs? You stingy git!
3lbs difference was RPR.
Personally, I think they were being far too generous to Blue Canari.
Steve
So Steve do you think Sir percy could win a race in group 2 company, or do you just think he has regressed and isn’t up to winning any races any more?
So Steve do you think Sir percy could win a race in group 2 company, or do you just think he has regressed and isn’t up to winning any races any more?
Has he regressed since the Derby?
RPR don’t seem to think so as the highest rating they ever gave him was in Dubai this year.
However, maybe all this losing will have had an effect on him.
Could he win a G2? There are some weak G2’s out there amd are there are G2 winners who aren’t up to Sir Percy’s level.
So, I’d say, "yes, it’s possible", if he’s placed in the right races.
Assuming the horse is of sound mind and body, I reckon that Aidan O’Brien would be able to find a G2 win for him.
However, I’m not so sure that Tregonning is so crafty/canny.
Steve
I do agree largely with what stevedvg is saying here, but wheras I agree that he beat nothing on the day in last years derby I do think his best form easily puts him up to winning a group1.
I just had a thought though, after his run in dubai, tregoning said that his next race would be the prince of wales, however he then decided to put him in the coronation cup (where he was made to look totally useless) which looking back must have been a desperate atempt to get some sort of progression. Im not sure what way tregoning campaigns his group1 horses as he doesnt have many but o’brien will sometimes put a horse out in a race which he isnt worried about winning just to bring them forward (people will probably disagree but I thought that george washington’s run in the celebration mile last year looked like one such occasion).
Basically by the changing of his intended campaign, how weak he was in the prince of wales antepost market and what we’ve seen on the track it looks very much like Sir Percy is neither doing it on or off the track, and I would suspect that they are having trouble with him at present.
I would think it is well worth staying clear of him until the money comes in for him again (like before the 2006 guineas, where, if I remember, he was very heavily backed in the run up).
Steve, you continually ignore or underplay three factors.
a) Sir Percy was a genuine Group 1 animal. The Dewhurst, the Guineas and the Derby prove that. All you’re doing is devaluing a generation because Sir Percy beat the lot. And that’s in the form book. And no, Sir Percy wasn’t lucky in the Dewhurst, but you will never agree.
b) Sir Percy’s injury in the Guineas. Marcus states he had never known Newmarket so firm and that was the beginning of the end for the horse, who won the best G1 for two year olds in 2005. The Dewhurst.
c) The excacerbation of the same injury following his heroic Derby victory. He came out of that race hobbling and really, they should have retired him. It was only the sporting inclinations of the Pakerhams which kept him in training. I know the likes of Englehard and Sangster would have had him at stud before the concluding 6f handicap because of the injuries sustained.
And you say he’s not regressed?
Remember Paul Gascoine? His injury in 1990 FA Cup Final. Many top players and pundits before that game were describing Gascoine as the best player in Europe. How did he end his days? Player Manager of Kettering and in Group Therapy.
He couldn’t come back after his knee injury and neither has the Derby winner. I don’t think Sir Percy has recovered physically and mentally. Will he ever? Who knows. But he’s in excellent hands.
Saying that, he’s had no luck this year. Ground like superglue in the Coronation, (a race which has just been handsomely franked as much tougher than it looked), and an ill considered experiment from the front in the Prince of Wales which left me upset and bemused at the time.
It might surprise you, Steve, that I have had relatively small bets on SP since the Derby. I’ve not been happy since Epsom with either the race conditions or the condition of the horse at any point.
But I was there on Derby Day and I saw something special.
Assuming the horse is of sound mind and body, I reckon that Aidan O’Brien would be able to find a G2 win for him. However, I’m not so sure that Tregoning is so crafty/canny.
On what evidence? Sheikh Hamdan allows Marcus a wide selection of his best horses, along with John Dunlop. So does Sheikh Ahmed. Other owners include Phillip Oppenheimer and Lady Tennant. His stable is always full. His runners are rock solid. The market is a reliable guide with runners. They don’t pull their horses. He talks honestly to the press and media who speak highly of him. (Unlike a certain other stable who have been criticised on here and other fora for hype, obfuscation and ruining ante-post markets).
What’s not to like about the man? You’re just topping up your argument with prejudice here.
Max
I’ve answered these questions again and again, so maybe it’s time for you to answer a simple question:
If a horse puts in a rating performance of 120, should that be good enough to win a G1?
Or, a similar question: is it usually good enough to win a G1?
If anyone has RFI or something similar, I’ve got a question:
Over the last 5 years, taking all the non-juvenile G1’s from 8-12f run in UK, Ireland & France, what percentage of the winners were awarded a RPR of 120 or below for their victory?
<br>————————————————————————Assuming the horse is of sound mind and body, I reckon that Aidan O’Brien would be able to find a G2 win for him. However, I’m not so sure that Tregoning is so crafty/canny. <br>————————————————————————
On what evidence?
Sorry, but that question is just plain daft.
I said "I’m not so sure" and you’re asking for "evidence".
What do you want evidence of? Are you asking me to prove that I’m not sure?
I think you’ll just have to take my word for it.
Steve
If anyone has RFI or something similar, I’ve got a question:
Over the last 5 years, taking all the non-juvenile G1’s from 8-12f run in UK, Ireland & France, what percentage of the winners were awarded a RPR of 120 or below for their victory
Actually, ignore that question.
A quick hunt around has convinced me that there’s a chronic underrating of French form when there’s no big name UK/Irish horses around, particularly in 3yo races.
(e.g. Dalakhani in the Lupin, Bago in the Jean Prat & Gp de Paris … even Rail Link wasn’t given more than 121 until he won the Arc).
So, maybe a more meaningful sample would have been UK races for older horses.
Steve
RP reports that Sir Percy is ‘unlikely to race again’.
It’s fair to say that he didn’t win a vintage Derby, but he was a proven Group1 animal. Have a happy retirement, Percy – you deserve it.
Its a shame because after reading the other thread about how poor a renewal the King George is, Sir Percy would of fit right in wouldn’t he?
It’s fair to say that he didn’t win a vintage Derby, but he was a proven Group1 animal.
Indeed, Bosranic.
Hindsight is the cleverest mistress of all, but even so, I wish they would have retired him after the Champion. He wasn’t well that day and as Mrs Pakenham said today, it’s clear that he’d had enough.
Ratings don’t paint the full picture about this animal, Steve. (I thought this thread had disappeared in the house move!). He won the Derby carrying an injury sustained in the Guineas which would have finished many good horses.
But I’m sure everyone is bored of our bickering – there is the demise of the King George to debate, and the professional reputations of TV’s racing celebrities to slaughter – so all it remains for me to say is Goodbye Sir Percy. You’ll be missed.
There’s a novel behind that title somewhere.
I dont think there has ever been a horse that has devided opinion on this forum so sharply. I hope he has a nice retirement and his owners certainly got to live the dream with him.
SHL
Agree with that
One Cool Cat possibly divided opinion a lot more
You get the impression from some on here that the owners of Sir percy should take a full page ad in the racing post to make a public apology for winning two group ones and finishing second in another
Sir Percy was an average Derby winner, as were Motivator and North Light before him. Historically, The Derby sometimes throws up a sequence of average winners ( like them) who fail to win again.
I’m sure another star performer like Galileo or High Chapparal will emerge in the not too distan future.
Who knows, Authorized may yet prove the doubters wrong.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
If This forum tends to be critical of horses that are campaigned to "work the hype machine" and then retired before they have to face proper competition. (Holy Roman Emperor, for example)  [/quote
Sorry – I am going back a bit here but I have just spotted the above from Steve on this thread in June. I can’t believe this didn’t get a response from any of the forum’s Ballydoyle fans. OK HREs retirement was a dissapointment but to refer to the horses 2 year old career as "campaigned for hype" can’t go unchallenged – what better way to face proper competition than the Coventry followed by the Railway followed by the Phoenix followed by the National followed by the Grand Criterium followed by the Dewhurst (facing the wonderhorse-elect twice). Perhaps 2-year-old races just don’t count?
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