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No need for forgiveness, you clearly love the game, like most on here mate.
The thing I like about Frankie is the showmanship.
In recent times, Soumillon is pure box office aswell.
Strangely enough Matthew, the thing I dislike most about Frankie is his showmanship … but I understand it’s part of his personality and why he’s encouraged to do it … at his best when allowed to dictate matters from the front and remains an extremely good judge of pace … but as an all-round jockey there have been many better.
In my lifetime very few have come close to Lester Piggott for sheer versatility and jockeyship … equally at home when dictating pace or timing a run from behind to perfection … if I ever needed one jockey to ride a race to save my life, Piggott would be the choice for me every time.
How much do you think Lester would charge to ride to save your life?
Answer; all you have.And you better have a long line of creditRacing definitely owes a huge favour to Frankie for
His showmanship, non racing people would know him as the trademark of the sport if that makes any sense.How much do you think Lester would charge to ride to save your life?
Answer; all you have.And you better have a long line of credit
… and I’m sure he’d declare every penny, AndyodCheers Dave,
In my lifetime, I’ve been into racing since I was 14 and am now 36, Frankie has been the best I’ve seen overall.
Sorry for confusing you earlier Matt
Seriously though, do you really think he’s one of the best you’ve seen in your life time? I’m sure you’ll remember the likes of Steve Cauthen (best judge of pace there’s ever been in my opinion), Walter Swinburn and Pat Eddery at their best, and you will have at least seen the back end of Piggot’s career.
Frankie is good, and has arguably done more for the sport than any of his peers, but I honestly don’t think he’s the greatest of all time. I’d put Fallon ahead of him any day of the week in terms of just race riding.
But if you’re talking about the full package – entertainment, likeability, jockeyship, personality etc then I can see where you’re coming from… sort of
Many good jockeys mentioned here , the likes of Cauthen and Swinburn were at the top of their game when I was young , Lester probably wasn’t at the top of his game but he was the best of all. I never really saw much of the American jockeys , Jerry Bailey was a master and apparrantly Willie Shoe was better than that . What I always wonder about Fred Darling, Willie Shoe and even Lester to a certain extent …just how many good jockeys were there way back when? After Francome retired PeterScu was out on his own , absolutely out on his own , maybe 5 or6 could live with him and that was only the 80s. Have there ever been so many good jockeys at one time as there are now? Watch the old reruns !!
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After Keiren Fallon won on New Planet for John Quinn he’s the greatest jockey of all time or was for the first 30 minutes after the race.
The thing about Frankie which makes him stand out above all others is his great personality,he’s easy to like and therfor easy to forgive.
If he and Jamie Spencer rode identical races and both made a balls up……Spencer would be hung with Frankie you’d most likely blame the horse.
Frankie is brilliant but whether he has won enough races he shouldn’t have won to make him the greatest of all time is highly debatable but there’s no getting away from it his skill combined with a fntastic personality make him the Mohhamad Ali of horse racing.
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In my lifetime, I’ve been into racing since I was 14 and am now 36, Frankie has been the best I’ve seen overall.
Rather different from your initial "greatest flat jockey of all-time" claim, unless "all time" should have read "my time".
Personally, for me nobody’s got near Fred Archer.
It should have read my time that’s right.
My dad always says Lester was the greatest.
Bit similar when he says the greatest footballer was George Best, in my time it was Diego Maradona.
Your point is valid and spot on,,,some people actually believe Mike Tyson was good. Try tell anyone that saw Pele that he wasn’t head and shoulder above best and Maradonna.
Sometimes the theory is completely wrong though. Ruby Walsh and AP MCoy being a classic examples…….many older people I know regard them as the 2 greatest of all time………..and I think Zenyatta and Kauto Star are the 2 best horses I have seen in 40 years.
not everyone is stuck in a time zone but as I said your point is very valid.
Cheers fella.
For me Frankies too nice. The way he’s been treated by Those Arabs at times is disgraceful.In Fallon and Frankie you have the best of both but they both could learn of each other !!
Dettori looks very good on a horse that travels on the bridle. He isn’t quite so effective in galvanising a horse that comes off the bridle. The vast majority of the time you can very quickly rip up your ticket. Interesting to see how he performs on the well-backed Capponi. Adrian Nicholls had to work overtime to get the horse home at Carlisle.
A fun discussion but I have to agree that we won’t come to a conclusion apart from Pinza’s that its all about eras and they are impossible to compare.IMO
……..By the way there is no bigger Lester fan than me and whatever anyone says or thinks Lester’s stats speak for themselves and even more so countless numbers of deeds in the saddle when it would be hard to imagine anyone else then or now pulling off certain victories.
Plenty of good jockeys at all stages of Lester’s era too.
Don’t buy in to the Frankie ‘what a laugh’ persona myself and tales abound that its all a front unless he is winning and I’m not inclined to over rate jockeys because they have just ridden a winner for me either.
How many jockeys are thought highly enough of to be put up in the Gold Cup,Grand National and the Epsom Derby? Win a flat race at Liverpool and then follow up riding in the National?
To return to our bouy Matthew,I mean Frankie; not a word in The Racing Post, nothing in the Sporting Life about The Leading Jockey Award at York.Did the greatest jockey of all time win the the Leading Jockey Award at the recent York meeting or did he not? You tell me.Then ask me; Who won the Leading Jockey Award at York? Please.
Frankie is a very, very good jockey. I think he suffered from reducing the number of rides he was taking and lost his edge a bit but still very good. His cool head a top assset.
But, for me, the best has to be Piggott. Forgetting the out-of-the-saddle stuff, on the track his record is outstanding. His unique style, born of the need to accommodate his physique into an effective riding position, clearly worked well and he had everything. The cool head, the balance, the strength, the judgement, the will to win and the bravery. That, and the brass neck to get on the best horses regardless of what it took. The whole package, never seen anyone to compare although everything I’ve read about Archer suggests he may have rivalled him.
Piggott’s era was a good one. Eddery, Carson (under-rated as a jockey in my opinion, the best lightweight of the last century I think and a great record), Mercer (great to watch) and, above all, Cauthen. All great jockeys and all around together, as sometimes seems to happen.
Today, I’d place Dettori, Murtagh and Fallon at the top of the pile, with Peslier and Soumillon. (I don’t watch enough French racing to see a lot of Lemaire but he looks alright).
But the jockey I think could become an all-time great, worthy of mention in the same breath as Eddery, Richards, St Martin, Kinane or Carson, if not Piggott or Cauthen, is Ryan Moore. He’s achieved a lot already but if he stays healthy he has a glittering future ahead and in twenty years time (hopefully on this forum) they may well be running a thread which has his name up with the very, very best in history.
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Lovely post, and I’m glad to find another person to rate Carson’s skills as highly as I do – the pugnacity, strength and sheer cheek of his riding has been a major pleasure of my racing experience.
Going back a little further, I’d want (again of course from what I’ve read) to add Steve Donoghue to your list: 6 Derby winners, huge popularity (think "Lester" plus "Frankie" and you’ve just about got it), ten championships and believe or not he was never called up before the Stewards. Lovely hands, great tactical skill (according to one ancient stablehand I met as a teenager) and the knack to get horses running for him with almost uncanny consistency.
Never got Gordon Richards in focus… perhaps one or two older Forumites may know more about him than I do (though I remember him of course as a trainer.)
… and I’m sure he’d declare every penny, Andyod
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