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Apologies if this post is a bit long, but I wanted to put a fair bit of detail in about the behaviour of Ladbrokes in this case.
In a nutshell, Ladbrokes are trying to pay me short on a number of bets with large payouts – at lower odds than those printed in black and white on the betting slips by their till.
Here is the detail:
I recently placed a few football bets with Ladbrokes using the football coupons that they have in their shops. As anyone who places football bets in Ladbrokes shops would probably know, when the cashier puts the coupon through the till, the bet receipt has printed on it the odds for the matches that one is betting on.
On seven of my bets Ladbrokes are refusing to pay me the correct amount based on the prices that are actually printed on the bet receipts.
On five of the bets they have said they will only pay me 6/5 on one of the teams when the betting slips clearly state 13/8 (the price printed on the coupon).
On the other two bets they have refused to give me a proper explanation of how they have arrived at the lower figures, despite the fact that I have requested this in writing. The response that I received was simply that the settlement figure given was final.
The bet payout amounts are as follows (with Ladbrokes’ figure in brackets):
£12,993.75 (£10,890.00)
£15,592.50 (£13,068.00)
£28,586.25 (£23,958.00)
£33,225.23 (£28,198.53)
£21,610.17 (£18,590.12)
£41,168.78 (£39,447.21)
£19,630.42 (£18,959.54)
The total shortfall is £19,695.70.It was not until I had gone back to the shop four times (on different days over a period of over two weeks) that Ladbrokes would actually tell me what the settlement figures were. On the first two visits I was told that they could not confirm figures because my bets were under investigation. On the third visit I was told that they could not give me any figures until the manager was in the shop.
Finally, on the fourth visit it was all smiles and handshakes from the district manager who asked me if I wanted to have my photo taken with one of those big cheques! I declined. He also asked if they could maybe say something about my win in one of the papers, which I said I didn’t mind.
I said to the district manager “I thought Ladbrokes didn’t like winners”. He said “If we didn’t like winners we wouldn’t pay you.”
Then when we went through the figures and it became crystal clear what they were trying to do, his words came back to haunt me.
He stated that it says at the bottom of the football coupon that “Prices are subject to change” and that this is why they were paying me at 6/5 and not the 13/8 that was printed on the slips. I pointed out that it says “Prices subject to change. Please remember to check your receipt carefully” and that if you check the receipts it says 13/8.
After verbally going round in circles with him several times, I decided to call it a day.
The “price change” of 13/8 to 6/5 was given as the explanation for five of the slips. I could not immediately check the discrepancy on the other two slips as they were not straight accumulators. I assumed (wrongly) that perhaps I had settled them incorrectly.
Nothing was said by Ladbrokes either then or since about any price changes on the other two slips.
After spending some time re-calculating the settlement of those two slips I found that I had indeed settled them correctly in the first place and Ladbrokes was incorrect.
I went back to the shop with a note for the district manager asking for an explanation as to how they arrived at their figures and left it with them.
I went back a few days later and was told simply that the settlement figures were final – no explanation was given.
I then decided to contact Ladbrokes Customer Services. I sent an email initially seeking clarification on the wording on the coupon (“These prices are subject to change. Please remember to check your receipt carefully.”)
I had a response from Steve at Customer Services which stated: “This simply means it is ultimately up to you to make sure you check your receipt when you place your bet in case prices have changed from those printed on the coupon.”
I responded seeking further clarification on something mentioned in the email and received a reply from David in Customer Services which stated: “I can confirm that if you place a bet on the coupon your receipt will show the correct price which may differ from the coupon price. … You should be notified regarding any price change from the coupon but as best policy you should check your receipt.”
So, having had two different people from Customer Services state clearly that the correct price is that printed on the bet receipts, I thanked them for confirming that point and asked them to settle my bets correctly.
I was initially told that it would take 48 hours for a “call back”. However, after chasing them and being told that the Area Manager was “investigating” my case I eventually got the following response after more than two weeks: “We have now had a reply from the shops Area Manager,
As all our slips state at the bottom of the slip that prices are subject to change. The Area Manager is happy with the settlement of all of your bets and is not going to resettle them,”I also received an email from the Head of Customer Services which stated : “ I would confirm. however, that these bets have been correctly settled at the lower amount due to price changes. Our coupons clearly state that prices are subject to fluctuation. As such the bets have been settled correctly.”
I do not understand how they think they can do this when their own Customer Services department has confirmed that the correct price is that which is printed on the bet receipt.
Basically, they are implying that the coupon warning on price changes gives them carte blanche to give the punter any price that Ladbrokes decide, regardless of what price is printed in black and white on the bet receipt.
I wonder if any other forum memebers have had this kind of experience with Ladbrokes, i.e. mucking about with prices etc ?
Fcuking robbing
http://www.sherv.net/cm/page/hidden/skype/bandit.gif
If you do a search for ‘Betting Issue’ by Anglo German you will find a thread in which forum member Wit gives some execellent advise which may help.
Good luck with this and well done with your bets.
What match was is that went from 13/8 to 6/5?
- Total Posts 17716
I’m usually keen to position myself alongside the punter in cases such as this, but please forgive me if my sympathies don’t extend to someone who has just pocketed £150,000.
If only all of our weekends could be so bad
The football coupons of which you speak are generally available days in advance of the matches they cover and the prices listed correct at the time of printing. However, fluctuations in associated markets can’t be reflected on the coupon itself (for obvious reasons) and as such any bets placed can only be settled at the odds available at the time.
It is my assumption that the scanning software Ladbrokes uses merely interprets the information provided on the coupon being processed, with no real-time adjustment for changes made to any one price. So bets placed within moments of a coupon having been issued will read exactly the same as bets placed several days later, even though each individual market may not be the same.
If the bets you have queried were struck at a time when a significant price change would appear either unreasonable or unlikely then Ladbrokes may have a case to answer, otherwise I can’t see that they’ve done anything wrong.
Here is the previous thread –
http://www.theracingforum.co.uk/horse-racing-forum/post264807.html#p264807
A solution perhaps to any misunderstanding with price changes would be to not put any prices on the coupon just the fixtures and one of the many tv’s in the shops could have the all the football prices on, then the cashier would fill in the blanks on the coupon.
Gaelic Warrior Gold Cup Winner 2026
Fcuking robbing
http://www.sherv.net/cm/page/hidden/skype/bandit.gif
If you do a search for ‘Betting Issue’ by Anglo German you will find a thread in which forum member Wit gives some execellent advise which may help.
Good luck with this and well done with your bets.
What match was is that went from 13/8 to 6/5?
It was Shakhtar on 20 August.
Thanks for pointing out the "Betting Issue" thread.
I’m usually keen to position myself alongside the punter in cases such as this, but please forgive me if my sympathies don’t extend to someone who has just pocketed £150,000.
If only all of our weekends could be so bad
The football coupons of which you speak are generally available days in advance of the matches they cover and the prices listed correct at the time of printing. However, fluctuations in associated markets can’t be reflected on the coupon itself (for obvious reasons) and as such any bets placed can only be settled at the odds available at the time.
It is my assumption that the scanning software Ladbrokes uses merely interprets the information provided on the coupon being processed, with no real-time adjustment for changes made to any one price. So bets placed within moments of a coupon having been issued will read exactly the same as bets placed several days later, even though each individual market may not be the same.
If the bets you have queried were struck at a time when a significant price change would appear either unreasonable or unlikely then Ladbrokes may have a case to answer, otherwise I can’t see that they’ve done anything wrong.
I’m not seeking your sympathy but I’m not really sure where you’re coming from. Do you think it’s OK for someone to be ripped off if they are still left with a six-figure sum? An old lady with £200,000 loses £20,000 to a conman – is that OK?
Your assumption about the scanning software interpreting the information on the coupon with no real-time adjustment for changes made to prices is totally wrong.
I placed other bets after the bets in question which did have a different price on them – clearly the price changed at some time after my initial bets although at no point did any Ladbrokes staff member inform me of any price changes whatsoever when placing the bets.
My complaint concerns Ladbrokes not settling at the prices printed on my betting slips.
- Total Posts 17716
If the prices on your betting slip were incorrect – i.e. not reflective of the prices at the time the bet was struck – then Ladbrokes have done absolutely the right thing in recalculating your returns.
When were the bets placed (date and time) and on what matches?
If the prices on your betting slip were incorrect – i.e. not reflective of the prices at the time the bet was struck – then Ladbrokes have done absolutely the right thing in recalculating your returns.
When were the bets placed (date and time) and on what matches?
The "correct price" for the bets, as confirmed by two people at Ladbrokes Customer Services is the price which is printed on the betting slip. So, by definition they are "reflective of the prices at the time the bet was struck". This is what most people would expect.
When Ladbrokes change a price, it is reflected on the betting slips, which is why the actual coupon said "These prices are subject to change. Please remember to check your receipt carefully." If one checks the first five bets listed above in my in initial post it says 13/8.
My issue is that Ladbrokes are not paying me out at the prices printed on the betting slips.
I would prefer to be paid out at the coupon prices for all my bets, however since the later bets actually show the changed price of 6/5 (from 13/8) I don’t hold any hope of this happening, which is why I have simply focussed on trying to get paid at those prices printed on my slips.
As I have said, not one Ladbrokes employee mentioned any price changes at the time the bets were struck.
As I said in the post above, the bets were placed on 20 August. The matches were UEFA Europa League matches.
What do you mean by "Ladbrokes … recalculating your returns"?
Do you have any specific knowledge of this?
Do you work for Ladbrokes?
IBAS may be able to help, or at least mediate the dispute
As far as I’m aware, the "agreed" price is the one Ladbrokes are offering at the time- so, technically, they would be settling the slip correctly.
However, since the 2005 Gambling Act came into force, failure of staff to notify punters of any changes to prices which are printed on betting slips (a message should flash up on their screen as the bet is struck) could well be tantamount to breaking the trade descriptions act, if not actually doing so, seeing as a betting slip is now a legally-binding contract.Though as Drone says, IBAS will have the definitive answer.
Though as Drone says, IBAS will have the definitive answer.
Sorry Figgers, but NO NO NO – please read Wit’s advice in the ‘Betting Issues’ thread. IBAS will not have a definitive answer – what they will do is judge the dispute with reference to Ladbrokes’ rules, however, those rules may not be lawful.
I’m not saying punters should never use IBAS, rather that if they do they do so on the understanding that they are not bound by the judgement.
Also, I don’t know what the maximum amount is that can be claimed in the ‘Small Claims Court’ but for the sake of 20 large at the very least I think Schme should seek proper legal advise from a contract lawyer.
As I understand it:Arbitration and mediation due to – one assumes – a thorough understanding of the rules of betting in general and the ones peculiar to individual bookmakers. But the decision they arrive at is not ‘legally binding’ and either or both parties are at no obligation to accept their decision.
I would hazard a guess that bookmakers have on the whole accepted their rulings as to do otherwise would be to court bad publicity.
Quite what their role is now that gambling transactions have become ‘legally enforceable’ and what weight their rulings would carry in a court-of-law I don’t know
A worthwhile first port of call, for clarification if nothing else
- Total Posts 17716
Please excuse my earlier tone, Schmekeldecker, it’s just been one of those weeks. Be assured that if there’s a company I’d like to work for less than Ladbrokes, I’m yet to come across it.
The point I was trying to make in my previous post was that if the prices had changed but (for whatever reason) weren’t shown on your betting slip, then Ladbrokes’s decision to adjust your returns would have been entirely reasonable. However, if they have confirmed that the prices were correct at the time the bets were struck then they clearly have no excuse for not settling each according to the terms of the coupon.
Continuing to bang your head against the brick wall that is Ladbrokes’s customer services – they are by far the worst I have ever experienced – obviously isn’t going to do you any favours, so legal action should be a very real consideration at this point. It may be wise to ‘suggest’ to the manager of the shop in which your bets were placed that legal advice is going to be sought, in the hope that you’ll be paid in full without the hassle of lodging a claim. An e-mail to the Racing Post (Bruce Millington’s address is editor@racingpost.com I believe) or ATR could also prove beneficial.
If it’s any help – in terms of independent verification at least – ‘Claire’ of Ladbrokes’s Live Chat team confirmed to me that, should actual prices differ from those printed on any football coupon, the customer’s receipt will display the updated odds. I have also requested a copy of the match result markets for the Europa League games played on 20/08/2009, which are kindly being provided by Live Chat team member ‘Saba’.
If and when they arrive – if they don’t, Ladbrokes will only be incriminating themselves – I’ll post them here immediately.
Though as Drone says, IBAS will have the definitive answer.
Sorry Figgers, but NO NO NO – please read Wit’s advice in the ‘Betting Issues’ thread. IBAS will not have a definitive answer – what they will do is judge the dispute with reference to Ladbrokes’ rules, however, those rules may not be lawful.
I do apologise, I was under the impression that IBAS acted to enforce (or at least advise on) the law of the land- hence the ‘I’, I rather naively thought!
I’ve now read the aforementioned thread, BTW- an interesting read for someone whose knowledge of current gambling legislation came from the bookies’ side of the fence!As far as I’m aware, the "agreed" price is the one Ladbrokes are offering at the time- so, technically, they would be settling the slip correctly.
However, since the 2005 Gambling Act came into force, failure of staff to notify punters of any changes to prices which are printed on betting slips (a message should flash up on their screen as the bet is struck) could well be tantamount to breaking the trade descriptions act, if not actually doing so, seeing as a betting slip is now a legally-binding contract.Friggo,
My first five winning slips actually had the coupon price of 13/8 printed on them. Subsequent slips had the lower price of 6/5 on them.
My initial request to Ladbrokes was to settle the bets as per the prices on the slips.
However, your comments about the trade descriptions act and the fact that I was never informed of any price changes have made me think that as it looks like I am being forced to go down the legal route, I might as well see whether I have a chance legally of getting all of the bets paid at the coupon prices. Up to now I had assumed there was no chance of that happening.
Though as Drone says, IBAS will have the definitive answer.
Sorry Figgers, but NO NO NO – please read Wit’s advice in the ‘Betting Issues’ thread. IBAS will not have a definitive answer – what they will do is judge the dispute with reference to Ladbrokes’ rules, however, those rules may not be lawful.
I’m not saying punters should never use IBAS, rather that if they do they do so on the understanding that they are not bound by the judgement.
Also, I don’t know what the maximum amount is that can be claimed in the ‘Small Claims Court’ but for the sake of 20 large at the very least I think Schme should seek proper legal advise from a contract lawyer.
I agree, Pompete. I have no intention of going to IBAS. They have a bad record of making irrational decisions. On many occasions their rulings contain references to things that "would have" happened, e.g. prices or terms that would have been on the screens or the fact that the bookmaker would never have offered odds that high etc. without any evidence to support it.
Also, unless things have changed, the punter makes his case, the bookie responds to IBAS and then IBAS make their ruling without the punter being allowed to challenge what the bookie says – even if it’s a pack of lies.
I have already spoken to my solicitor who thinks that it’s pretty straightforward. I think he said the limit for small claims is £5,000. This sort of case would only be half a day in court or less. Assuming I win, Ladbrokes would pay my costs. If I lose (unlikely, I think!) I pay their costs.
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