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I don’t really accept this argument. The King George didn’t take enough out of Mill Reef to stop him winning and Arc or Dancing Brave or Lammtarra or Reference Point or Nijinsky from winning the St Leger etc etc (there are many more examples).
Mill Reef and Dancing Brave were both 140+ who were exceptions to the rule, legendary horses kind of don`t play by them anyway.
Lammtarra was unusually unexposed by the time he ran in the Arc, it was his fourth race in a short career.
Reference Point and Nijinsky had huge class advantages in their St Legers – they could afford to run half a stone and more below form and still win.I don’t really accept this argument. The King George didn’t take enough out of Mill Reef to stop him winning and Arc or Dancing Brave or Lammtarra or Reference Point or Nijinsky from winning the St Leger etc etc (there are many more examples).
Mill Reef and Dancing Brave were both 140+ who were exceptions to the rule, legendary horses kind of don`t play by them anyway.
Lammtarra was unusually unexposed by the time he ran in the Arc, it was his fourth race in a short career.
Reference Point and Nijinsky had huge class advantages in their St Legers – they could afford to run half a stone and more below form and still win.Thats the level you’re talking about with King George’s though (at least it should be), it creates legends. When a three year old tackles the King George he’s not just competing against his rivals on the day he’s putting himself up to be judged against the likes of Dancing Brave / Mill Reef.
surely if the winner of the King George was upto or somewhere near the standard of a Mill Reef or a Dancing Brave it would completely devalue the legends of these horses. If a 140+ rated horse came along every couple of generations what would be the point. Surely their rarity is what makes them so special. rather than spending our time lamenting past glories we should look forward to meetings of the best horses of the day and when the special ones do come along we can truly savour them and remember the day you saw …….. win a derby a KG and an Arc.
surely if the winner of the King George was upto or somewhere near the standard of a Mill Reef or a Dancing Brave it would completely devalue the legends of these horses. If a 140+ rated horse came along every couple of generations what would be the point. Surely their rarity is what makes them so special. rather than spending our time lamenting past glories we should look forward to meetings of the best horses of the day and when the special ones do come along we can truly savour them and remember the day you saw …….. win a derby a KG and an Arc.
This 140 thing – I can’t comment on. They weren’t my ratings so I don’t take notice of them.
Just a question when was the last "legend" like Mill Reef or Dancing Brave? I don’t think we’ve had one since Dancing Brave.
If you’re asking my top 10f – 12f horses of the last fifty years or so I’d say :
Ribot
Sea Bird
Nijinsky
Mill Reef
Brigadier Gerard
Shergar
Dancing Brave.Ok thats open to debate, I concede but IMO (for what its worth) we haven’t had a true legend since 1986 the closest we got is arguably Montjeu at his best.
(PS! Please don’t give me Dubai Millennium (on turf anyway)).
We’re long overdue a superstar.
Dubai Millenium was rated 140 by Timeform. Justified? Yes. Unfortunately he didn`t win a sexy race (Classic/KG/Arc) which
Ribot
Sea Bird
Mill Reef
Brigadier Gerard
Shergar
Dancing Brave.
Vaguely Nobleall did. Also, his rating came in the Dubai World Cup.
Dubai Millenium was rated 140 by Timeform. Justified? Yes. Unfortunately he didn`t win a sexy race (Classic/KG/Arc) which
Ribot
Sea Bird
Mill Reef
Brigadier Gerard
Shergar
Dancing Brave.
Vaguely Nobleall did. Also, his rating came in the Dubai World Cup.
Dubai Millennium was a low 130’s horse on turf by my ratings he never beat a top group one horse that ran to form. No way can I have him mentioned in the same breath as real legends.
What he achieved on dirt I wouldn’t know I don’t like dirt racing and I take no interest / notice of it at all.
Timeforms ratings generally are a mystery to me as I’ve stated many times I just can’t take them seriously.
Dubai Millennium was a low 130’s horse on turf by my ratings he never beat a top group one horse that ran to form.
So you penalise a horse because of the standard of the opposition. What if Dancing Brave had come up in a bad year?
After winning the Derby, High Chaparrel won 4 Gr1s, including the Irish Derby, 2 Breeders Cups, & an Irish Champion Stakes. He also came 3rd in 2 Arcs. Not too shabby IMO
Dubai Millennium was a low 130’s horse on turf by my ratings he never beat a top group one horse that ran to form.
So you penalise a horse because of the standard of the opposition. What if Dancing Brave had come up in a bad year?
Dancing Brave beat rock solid performers Dubai Millennium beat the likes of Beat All and Almushtarak whereas Dancing Brave trounced the likes of Shahrastani and Triptych among others.
Dominating weak fields is one thing but in order to prove yourself the best you have to beat the best. If Dubai Millennium had beaten Montjeu running upto his form then fair enough or if he’d beaten a top class field in an Arc or King George again fair enough but he didn’t. His wins were in races where he could dominate and have things all his own way with no real threat.
On turf I hasten to add.
After winning the Derby, High Chaparrel won 4 Gr1s, including the Irish Derby, 2 Breeders Cups, & an Irish Champion Stakes. He also came 3rd in 2 Arcs. Not too shabby IMO
Yeah I forgot High Chapparal. He was a very good horse. I wouldn’t put him in the "legends" class but he weren’t bad to be fair, pretty durable, tough, gutsy but perhaps without that extra little bit of brilliance.
Just my opinion.
Dancing Brave beat rock solid performers Dubai Millennium beat the likes of Beat All and Almushtarak whereas Dancing Brave trounced the likes of Shahrastani and Triptych among others.
Dominating weak fields is one thing but in order to prove yourself the best you have to beat the best.
Like Shergar did? If a horse trounces a 125 rated animal by ten lengths plus he has to be given the rating he deserves.
Dancing Brave beat rock solid performers Dubai Millennium beat the likes of Beat All and Almushtarak whereas Dancing Brave trounced the likes of Shahrastani and Triptych among others.
Dominating weak fields is one thing but in order to prove yourself the best you have to beat the best.
Like Shergar did? If a horse trounces a 125 rated animal by ten lengths plus he has to be given the rating he deserves.
Shergar for me is the weakest on my list. He did win the Derby and King George which were two top graded races (even if the quality of that Derby wasn’t great).
I can understand your point entirely regarding Shergar.
Dubai Millenium was rated 140 by Timeform. Justified? Yes. Unfortunately he didn`t win a sexy race (Classic/KG/Arc) which
Ribot
Sea Bird
Mill Reef
Brigadier Gerard
Shergar
Dancing Brave.
Vaguely Nobleall did. Also, his rating came in the Dubai World Cup.
In my opinion Dubai Millennium is unfairly maligned. I happen to think he was a helluva horse over ten furlongs. Frankie Dettori thinks he is the best horse he has ever ridden. Of all the great horses who won over that distance since the war, I firmly believe that Dubai Millennium would have given them all a race.
His only defeat was in the Derby, over 12 furlongs.
Incidentally, the list of great horses you have named (I would also include Nijinsky) are the best I have seen – Sea-Bird being the best of all, in my opinion.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Agree with "himself" above.
Generous is too quickly forgotten by many, it seems. In the summer of 1991 he was a hell of a horse: won Derby by 5 lengths and 7; Irish Derby by 3 lengths (from 136-rated Suave Dancer); and King George by a record 7 lengths.
Flash,
your argument regarding Dubai Millenium seems to centre around the fact he didnt win an Arc or KG. However he was an out and out 10f horse beaten on his only attempt at 12f, does it make him less good as a horse because he didnt fully stay 12f? regarding his ability on grass I believe his 3 G1 wins (on ground ranging from heavy to GF) show him to be top class on the surface. He may not have had the strongest of opposition but in anihalating those he did face so easily he surely showed himself to be top drawer on grass and dirt.
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