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Wonder what you will call him when he wins it again next season
I considered Kauto Star to be great before Boxing Day. After his win I upgraded his status to legend.
A fourth win in the race would equal the mighty Desert Orchid’s record, but he’d become the first horse to win it on four consecutive occasions. If he added another Gold Cup to his cabinet prior to the KG there’s only one level above legend and that’s ‘the greatest’, but I think that mantle is already taken.
Seriously, a fourth consecutive King George and you’d struggle to put anything above him behind Arkle, in my opinion, but others have been around longer than me and perhaps they would have a better idea.
No I would not struggle to put him behind Arkle even if he did the above. Best since for sure but never better,,,,,he would have that handle round his neck already if it was going to happen
Fantastic acheivment if he could do it but as good as he is he just doesn’t have the jumping ability or engine Arkle had.
If you can imagine Master Minded winning the Gold Cup in the manner he won the QMCC but with Moscow Flyer finsihing 20 lengths second that would give you an idea of what Kauto would have been up against and why Arkle was rated 212.
Kauto Star overall is the best I have seen since but the only horse who might be rated very close to Arkle at the end of the day is Master Minded…..he keeps winning the way he as been and peoples estimation of him will go through the roof. Came down the hill like Arkle and went up the hill like him……..watch the difference between the way he and Arkle did it and then watch how Denman did it there’s no comparison.
I am a fan of Kauto and there is no doubt that he is a very good horse but I would really struggle to put him behind Arkle. He is one of the best I have seen but the best was Dessie who had this aura about him (difficult to explain on a forum but if you saw him I think you will understand what I mean). Yes they have similar records but Dessie was far tougher and had the strength to win with big weights which I have yet to see Kauto do.
Kauto may yet break Dessie’s King George record but if Denman returns to his best I cannot see him winning another GC. If he did end up with only 1 GC he will still go down as one of the best of all time.
Granted Dessie did all that but then he had to. Racing has changed somewhat and there is no need for good horses to be giving away lumps of weight these days, That’s not to say they couldn’t do it as Denman proved earlier in his career.
Personally I got very little joy watching Dessie struggle up the hill to beat the moderate Yahoo in what turned out to be an very ordianary Gold Cup.
I was much more impreesed by Kauto’s burst of speed when he won it and his King George wins were better too IMO.
Did I mention I don’t agree with you?
So a series of mistakes (and getting knocked sidewards by a rival) won’t impact on a horse’s finishing effort?
Of course it will. However, an equally (perhaps more) profound effect on a horse’s finishing effort will come about if he lacks the requisite stamina. To discard the latter as impossible in the case of Voy Por Ustedes is blissfully ignorant IMO.
Albertas Run was the clear dominant force in that division last season, the type to make into a high-level staying chaser, and almost every one of those he beat have shown better form in handicaps this season. If you think Air Force One is a high 150 horse as his handicap form suggests, then a rating in the mid to high 160s on AB isn’t unreasonable as he laughed at AFO (and others) every time they met.
Alberta’s Run gave his best performance last year in the Reynoldstown IMO, where although clearly beating Air Force One, hardly "laughed" at him. After that, Air Force One improved markedly to win at Punchestown and was steadily progressive on his first two starts this year. I wouldn’t dream of calling Alberta’s Run a mid to high 160s horse based on such evidence (not to mention his poor efforts early in the season), which would leave him shy of both Exotic Dancer and Our Vic regardless.
I wonder how you would have rated the horse before the King George Friggo and what kind of chance you gave him?
I think you are being a little bit short sighted here. While no doubt he has come on a lot since his last run they never expected him to run quite so well. He has run out of his skin and finished 2nd in a race short in distance of his best and on a track that wouldn’t be his trainers first choice for him. The 3rd VPU ran his best race for yonks IMO and could be better at 3 miles than he ever was at 2 miles ?????
Jonjo’s must now be a serious Gold Cup contender behind the big two, Having won on the course at the festival already we know the course and trip suits him.
If he is not rated that highly Jonjo would surely be as well leaving him in his box………..I woldn’t have given him a cat in hells chance of getting into the frame at Cheltenham but on that run he must have every chance.
Granted Dessie did all that but then he had to. Racing has changed somewhat and there is no need for good horses to be giving away lumps of weight these days, That’s not to say they couldn’t do it as Denman proved earlier in his career.
I take the view that Kauto Star, as talented as he undoubtedly is, could not give vast lumps of weight away to his contemporaries in the manner that Arkle, Flyingbolt, Burrough Hill Lad or Denman did. He tried to concede weight to Monet’s Garden ( a moderate performer ) at Aintree but couldn’t.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Thats fine Fist. We all have our opinions. I cant agree that his King George wins were better. The field he beat this time was one of the worst I can remember.
Dessie winning his GC was one of sports great moments. Granted Yahoo wasnt a great horse but conditions were atrocious and the reason Yahoo was so prominent. I dont think you can call Kauto’s GC field great. His main rival hadnt even won a Grade One!
I know Denman has carried big weights but he is a very different horse to Kauto and pretty sure he couldnt do it over 2 miles. Its not about Denman though.
Like I said, Kauto is a very, very good horse and I have been lucky to see him and Dessie at their peaks but there is no doubt in my mind that Dessie was the better horse
. Fist of fury2k8
I wonder how you would have rated the horse before the King George Friggo and what kind of chance you gave him?
Jonjo’s must now be a serious Gold Cup contender behind the big two, Having won on the course at the festival already we know the course and trip suits him
FIST, If "Albertas run" doesn"t get an official rating of at least 170 for his
superb King george effort then i know less than most of these racing forum
contributors that give him a "No chance to Outside chance for a place"in the Gold Cup! They wont be saying that in March!!Granted Dessie did all that but then he had to. Racing has changed somewhat and there is no need for good horses to be giving away lumps of weight these days, That’s not to say they couldn’t do it as Denman proved earlier in his career.
I take the view that Kauto Star, as talented as he undoubtedly is, could not give vast lumps of weight away to his contemporaries in the manner that Arkle, Flyingbolt, Burrough Hill Lad or Denman did. He tried to concede weight to Monet’s Garden ( a moderate performer ) at Aintree but couldn’t.
When you are referring to Denman giving vast lumps of weight away to his contemporaries do you mean his Hennessy victory? If so, I’m sure Kauto could have given a 142 rated horse 19lbs and a bleaching too.
You’re right though about Kauto v Monets Garden. He tried to give a 165 rated horse 14 lbs, first time out for the season, and narrowly failed. Not too shabby though.
That being said I would agree that of the current top staying chasers (Denman and Kauto) that the Tank is better built and suited for carrying weight than Kauto.
Thats fine Fist. We all have our opinions. I cant agree that his King George wins were better. The field he beat this time was one of the worst I can remember.
Dessie winning his GC was one of sports great moments. Granted Yahoo wasnt a great horse but conditions were atrocious and the reason Yahoo was so prominent. I dont think you can call Kauto’s GC field great. His main rival hadnt even won a Grade One!
I know Denman has carried big weights but he is a very different horse to Kauto and pretty sure he couldnt do it over 2 miles. Its not about Denman though.
Like I said, Kauto is a very, very good horse and I have been lucky to see him and Dessie at their peaks but there is no doubt in my mind that Dessie was the better horse
QMCC winner, RSA Winner, Hennsessy 2nd, Paddy Power winner and a Ryanair winner
I think history will treat Kauto Star pretty well. When a horse is as good as him the others tend to look rather ordinary but they are far from it. It was the case when Arkle ran and it was the case when Dessie ran and it always will be the case.About Kautos Gold Cup the only reason his main rival hadn’t won a grade 1 was Kauto Star was it not? Without him he surely wold have won a few I would have thought.
Very ordinary QMCC & RSA winners, Paddy Power & Ryanair winners who stables were seriously out of form
That said you can only beat whats in the race. History will treat him well and rightly so but better than Dessie? I dont think so.
ED had opportunities to win Grade 1’s and finally managed it today. Still needed a horse to fall though
Never ceases to amaze me how easily our 4-legged friends can make us all look silly at times. Wouldn’t be confident enough to say he would have definitely still won but he was going very well at the time but he normally is at that stage……….wonder what Ruby thought apart from "B*****d"
There will be some celebrations taking place at Jackdaw now and even more when he gets back. Jonjo might even break his teetotalling habits and have a sip of shandy
Great Stuff!!!I wonder how you would have rated the horse [Alberta’s Run] before the King George Friggo and what kind of chance you gave him?
I gave Alberta’s Run no chance before the King George, Fists, though that was mostly because I wouldn’t normally look twice at a horse showing regressive form for Jonjo O’Neill. Let’s not open that particular can of worms again, though.
To answer your point about how he looks for the Gold Cup now (connections aside, of course), based on that run he’d be in the melting pot with a handful of others for fourth place provided the ‘Big 3’ all turn up at their best (taking into account that the Gold Cup C&D will suit him better than Friday’s).
Granted Dessie did all that but then he had to. Racing has changed somewhat and there is no need for good horses to be giving away lumps of weight these days, That’s not to say they couldn’t do it as Denman proved earlier in his career.
I take the view that Kauto Star, as talented as he undoubtedly is, could not give vast lumps of weight away to his contemporaries in the manner that Arkle, Flyingbolt, Burrough Hill Lad or Denman did. He tried to concede weight to Monet’s Garden ( a moderate performer ) at Aintree but couldn’t.
When you are referring to Denman giving vast lumps of weight away to his contemporaries do you mean his Hennessy victory? If so, I’m sure Kauto could have given a 142 rated horse 19lbs and a bleaching too.
You’re right though about Kauto v Monets Garden. He tried to give a 165 rated horse 14 lbs, first time out for the season, and narrowly failed. Not too shabby though.
That being said I would agree that of the current top staying chasers (Denman and Kauto) that the Tank is better built and suited for carrying weight than Kauto.
I think you have to ask the question did PN have him fit enough at Aintree………Doubt if Maonet Garden wold have beaten him at any distance at Kempton on that seasons King George on Boxing day……….weight couldn’t have brought them together that day.
Think you guys are being a bit unfair to the horse bringing that race up
I re watched Dessies Whitbread win the other night and a couple of his King Georges…..the way he jumped for fun [never any thought in those days about whether he would tip up or not] the way he battled against horses carrying less weight..the way he stopped dead when he knew he was being photographed…I just can’t feel the same way about Kauto Star [and I do try to].
I re watched Dessies Whitbread win the other night and a couple of his King Georges…..the way he jumped for fun [never any thought in those days about whether he would tip up or not] the way he battled against horses carrying less weight..the way he stopped dead when he knew he was being photographed…I just can’t feel the same way about Kauto Star [and I do try to].
So which horse at the moment makes you feel like that?
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