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No worries, Bob.
You are right, of course – a great horse did prove a lot of doubters (I confess I thought he had a little to prove following Haydock) wrong, but for me, today’s performance falls a little short of his previous efforts in the King George. I’ve merely chosen to express that as a rating (which is still a top-class effort though!).
Grass,
Interesting that you reckon "voy por" ran about 5lb below his best,
i personally thought considering the time of the race he ran to his mark
over what might be a trip too far! "Albertas" ran the race i expected him to
and would give him 170 so your not too far out there, puts him in the Gold cup picture now though eh?Grass,
Interesting that you reckon "voy por" ran about 5lb below his best,
i personally thought considering the time of the race he ran to his mark
over what might be a trip too far! "Albertas" ran the race i expected him to
and would give him 170 so your not too far out there, puts him in the Gold cup picture now though eh?Albertas Run put in a fine performance today. I am fan of the horse but he surprised me with this run. I’m not sure he could ever reverse form with Kauto (no slight intended) but he’s definitely a more dangerous horse on good ground (like Kauto is). Well done for calling him out beforehand too – great ew value.
Grass,
Interesting that you reckon "voy por" ran about 5lb below his best,
i personally thought considering the time of the race he ran to his mark
over what might be a trip too far! "Albertas" ran the race i expected him to
and would give him 170 so your not too far out there, puts him in the Gold cup picture now though eh?I reckon VPU has ran bang on his best mark, GWILSON77, as I have him on a career-high of 167 for the Melling, with Alberta’s Run improving around 10lbs from his RSA Chase mark. All in my opinion, of course.
VPU stayed the trip better than I thought he might, truth be told, and though I’ve knocked his achievements in the past, he is a thoroughly likeable yoke, and very consistent.
- Total Posts 17716
Terrific run from Kauto Star, and the win ensures he’ll go down in history as more than just another very good horse, but some of the after-race hyperbole is way over the top imo.
Any number of horses disappointed today, a fact borne out by the SP’s of the 2nd and 4th home, and the proximity of VPU who hadn’t lasted 2.5m in the soft ground at Aintree.
I haven’t rated the race myself, but an easy 8l defeat of a horse with a best-ever RPR of 160 (best OR 155) previously hardly suggests a stunning victory. If one accepts Grassy’s 172 as being somewhere near the mark then, for all it was aesthetically pleasing, it really was no better a performance than any of his last 3 defeats.
A 2nd Gold Cup still seems a long way off, from where I’m sitting.People can rate the KG until the cows come home, it doesn’t hide the fact that he made a mockery out of of a former Arkle and Champion Chase hero in Voy Por Ustedes and last years champion staying novice.
A truly magnificent beast like Kauto Star doesn’t need a number to tell you how good he is, FFS – a pair of eyes and half a brain tells you he’s one in a million. We all knew how good he was before Boxing Day, but a third successive KG, coupled with two Tingle Creeks and one (possibly two) Gold Cups, will tell generations just how good he was.
His name is now indelibly etched in the annals of time.
On the subject of Aintree. Our Vic is a splendid horse, but I had to laugh at the RP verdict before the race that the gap between him and Kauto Star had ‘narrowed considerably’. What utter rubbish.
Kauto Star endured a hard season in 2007-2008 and he only had a three week break prior to Aintree after running flat out for the entire final circuit of the Gold Cup. He looked set to win convincingly before a mistake two out took the stuffing out of him.
In The Betfair, Sam Thomas didn’t give him the greatest ride, a fact that we later found out wasn’t helped by Paul Nicholls possibly running him when not 100%. I remember PN saying before Haydock that he let the horse down after Down Royal. Now, when you consider that Kauto Star probabaly works harder at home than he did in Ireland, letting him down was not the brightest move he’s ever made.
I don’t think it was greed. PN has so much faith in the horse he forgets that he’s not a machine. Logic tells me that he only has one more season left after this and needs more time between races. We won’t see him at Aintree this season and I don’t think we’ll see him at Haydock next year, either. He’ll have no more than three outings next term, all being well.
Don’t disrespect this horse by allocating him a number. He is a true superstar in ability and character. He has the courage to match as we have seen in the Gold Cup, where he never gave up despite pressure from a long, long way out and he fought back admirably at Aintree when completely knackered after a long season.
Arkle maybe ‘The Greatest’, but Kauto Star is The Great One and the best of his generation.
He’s not finished yet…fingers crossed!
Bilge-water of the highest order, Bosranic.
I’m not an automaton, and I can assure you that no-one has a greater appreciation of Kauto Star’s achievements than me. But I’ll rate his performance if I sodding-well like, thank you very much, and I’ll thank you to desist from suggesting that it is somehow vulgar or disrespectful to the horse to do so.
Believe it or not, I actually find it easier to place Kauto Star’s performances in historical context, by giving them a rating………..rather than using words like “Zowee!”, “Phew!” or “Strewth!” as a baromter.
Each to their own though – I think we should respect that.
As I’ve said (though not in as many words) in another thread, in a weird way this performance and not the two that preceded it tells me that Kauto probably isn’t as good as he was. Given his previous runs this term, I’d be reluctant to credit Alberta’s Run with a huge amount of improvement whilst Voy Por has failed to stay IMO (though not by much- I’d happily see him in the Ryanair). That would lead me to stick a tenative rating of 170/171 on the bare form plus whatever extra Kauto was value for (4 lengths max). That puts Kauto half a stone below what he was once capable of (over the same C&D), so I’ll be happy to oppose him with a fully-fit Denman- and perhaps even Neptune Collonges- on Gold Cup day.
All that said, it’s great to see history being made.
the field were not bad but it was no championship race.
There were 4 other Grade 1 winners in the race, two of whom came second and third.
If we had a Flat race with 5 Group 1 winners in it, we would be drooling.
Obviously, I am with Grasshopper on allocating numbers to performances. I was compiling speed ratings on the same scale as the Flat form ratings at the time, and gave Hawk Wing a 149 for the Lockinge. I think my second highest was Russian Rhythm, 131 for the Lowther.
Bilge-water of the highest order, Bosranic.
I’m not an automaton, and I can assure you that no-one has a greater appreciation of Kauto Star’s achievements than me. But I’ll rate his performance if I sodding-well like, thank you very much, and I’ll thank you to desist from suggesting that it is somehow vulgar or disrespectful to the horse to do so.
Believe it or not, I actually find it easier to place Kauto Star’s performances in historical context, by giving them a rating………..rather than using words like “Zowee!”, “Phew!” or “Strewth!” as a baromter.
Each to their own though – I think we should respect that.
Far too many variables in this sport for one figure to give an accurate representation of form or ability.
I’ve read quite a few different numeric interpretations of the race, thus far. Much depends on whether or not you think Albertas Run has improved or Voy Por Ustedes stayed the trip. Again, both of these factors are open to interpretation.
Ratings are a useful guideline and a great source for discussion, but nothing else – very similar to the guidelines you find on food packages (although I wouldn’t even consider them useful).
There’s one thing you can’t argue with when putting something or someone into historical context – Achievement.
As you said, each to their own.
Friggo
How can you suggest YPU hasn’t stayed? Surely the cumulative effect of several mistakes is what’s caused him to fade. Plus, why wouldn’t you credit AR with improvement given how well his novice form has stood up this season?
RP rated Kauto Star at 184 for yesterday’s run – the same as he achieved in last year’s race. Looking at what he beat this year the rating at furst seems difficult to justify given that Albertas Run’s previous best was 160. RP are saying that ARs improved by 14 lbs…
My initial estimate was 176 for KS and 166 for AR.
However, the race was 10.1 secs (approx 40-50 lengths) faster than the Feltham which was won by Breedsbreeze with a best of 148 so you can see why they had to give Kauto such a high rating.
There’s one thing you can’t argue with when putting something or someone into historical context – Achievement.
As you said, each to their own.
Perhaps you will remember your own advice, next time you mention Tidal Bay in the same breath as Kauto Star, Denman and Master Minded.
Silly season with the RPR’s again. 174 Albertas Run. Bear in mind they gave See More Business 176 for winning his second King George by 17l.
Nit picking of the highest order but some of Kauto’s jumping was a little disconcerting, he wanted to go short quite often, notably at the last, and though he met plenty long and jumped them well, I can’t help but wonder if he’s got a niggly problem that his hurting him when he lands, hence his reluctance on occasions to take off.
Perhaps you will remember your own advice, next time you mention Tidal Bay in the same breath as Kauto Star, Denman and Master Minded.
As Rocky Balboa once said ‘It ain’t over ’til it’s over’.
On the subject of past opinions on Tidal Bay, I won’t tell you who will win The Arkle in January like I did last season. I’ll keep you guessing.
However, the race was 10.1 secs (approx 40-50 lengths) faster than the Feltham which was won by Breedsbreeze with a best of 148 so you can see why they had to give Kauto such a high rating.
You didn’t need a stopwatch to see that the King George was run at a much stronger pace than the Feltham so a direct time comparison isn’t much use.
Silly season with the RPR’s again. 174 Albertas Run. Bear in mind they gave See More Business 176 for winning his second King George by 17l.
Nit picking of the highest order but some of Kauto’s jumping was a little disconcerting, he wanted to go short quite often, notably at the last, and though he met plenty long and jumped them well, I can’t help but wonder if he’s got a niggly problem that his hurting him when he lands, hence his reluctance on occasions to take off.
I don’t agree with you regarding the ratings this time.
Experience tells us that Kauto is capable of 180’s round Kempton and he looked exactly the same horse yesterday as he always has in the King George.
Albertas Run needs a stamina test and they went a real gallop yesterday which helped him he just got outsped by Kauto when the winner went on. Albertas is only just out of novice company and that was the best run of his lifetime.
Voy Por Ustedes is a far better horse over a trip than he is over two miles IMO. Over the minimum trip I have him as somewhere around 163 but he ran well above that at Aintree and again yesterday IMO.
When you consider the forth horse is around a 150 horse – he ran pretty much to that mark yesterday which would tie in with Kauto’s 182 (that I’ve rated him).
It leaves Albertas and Voy Por on 174 and 173 which also pretty much ties in with Voy Pors Aintree run last season.
It all adds up and looks solid enough to me.
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