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Kicking King was probably, in all honesty, not as talented as Kauto Star
Your probably right, but lets not forget the fright Kicking King gave the subsequent 179 rated 2 mile chaser (Well Chief) in the Arkle and had it not been for his last fence blunder he would have been an equally impressive winner of the King George against AZertyuiop and Kingscliff or are at the very least the equal of Racing Demon and Exotic Dancer. And thats not even mentioning his Gold Cup win and for me his most impressive performance…the Durkan Chase at Punchestown.
"He has fallen twice in 9 races."
Ah yes – you are correct – apologies!
Fsl – I’ve no idea how far they’d have to go for Hedgehunter to beat Kauto Star but it’d be a sight farther than 3m 2F.
TDK – if you offered me 1/2 that Kauto Star would get round in the Gold Cup I’ d back it all day.
OK, the reason I said promising was for the simple reason, to fulfil his promise, he will need to win the Gold Cup plain and simple. I am pretty sure connections will be totally disappointed if he fails to do so. He will be similar to that other promising chaser that Grasshoper was a huge fan of, Beef or Salmon. Although he has won many Grade 1 chases, he never fulfilled the promise of winning a Gold Cup.
I find it hilarious that the KS fans immediately jump on me when I used that word “promisingâ€ÂÂ
Racing Demon seemed to run out of gas in KG, Exoctic was not stopping when clouting last
The form of these two horses puts em in mix with all the top 3 milers, with the latter looking like further may suit
<br> War of Attrition 174 (best), Forget the Past 160, Hedgehunter 160
<br>Did Exotic Dancer run to 160+ in KG?<br>
I agree with Grasshopper, of course everyone wants to win a Gold Cup above all but that doesnt mean you have "failed" or have not proved yourself if the horse does not win it. One Man for instance (a more suitable comparison to Kauto Star at this stage of his career in my opinion rather than Desert Orchid and Arkle) had the pace to win a QM on fast ground while the stamina to win a King George at Sandown but couldnt get home over the Gold Cup trip….was he a failure?
The real test for Kauto Star will be on faster ground against the better Irish chasers, he has proved himself against the best of the Brits. Should he fail in the Gold Cup yet come back out and p**s
in at Aintree or Punchestown against WOA and co then I do not think he will have much else to prove.I agree with Grass too, consistently putting in top performances is what you rate horses on, not winning one race,  winning the Championship race  is just the icing on the cake imo
(Edited by empty wallet at 4:21 pm on Dec. 27, 2006)
Sorry guys, not sure where or when I called BoS or KS failures, so lets get that straight.
GH, to actually be labelled the best staying chaser would require you to actually win the the best staying race, I would have thought. Well if KS doesn’t win the Gold cup because he a) doesn’t stay or b) leathers a fence and ends up on his backside would not entitle him to be called the best staying chaser. Recent discussions here have labelled KS "The best staying chaser" or "The best chaser in 20 years". He has yet to meet any of the first three home in the Gold Cup yet, so until he does meet them, I will reserve judgement.
Also, GH, the horses that didn’t win a GC, Wayward Lad, Florida Pearl, they were not the best staying chasers, as they didn’t stay… Also, if KS slipped going to the last he wouldn’t have paddled through that fence he would have smashed himself right through it, its so clear he took off way too early…..
Whats the Robert Redford stuff all about?????
I can’t believe all this talk of k.star being this super horse one only has to look what he beat. I was dissapointed he beat an improving handicapper by 8l and a non stayer at 3miles in Racing Demon. The horse won the Winter speed championship not the bloody staying championship, this is held at cheltenham in mid march ya know the race won by horses such as BEST MAITE (more than once) Dessie, and last year the irish beast W.O.A.<br> Should anybody be considering backing THE STAR what do you think of the statement of the connection’s?<br> I thought the connections stated the king george was his ideal race, track,ground. was ruby walsh dissapointed that the horse didnt beat the others by a wider margin as a super horse would be entitled to ? Now we are led to believe he will be better going left handed, good! The gold cup is going to be run left handed only this time he may face a field of double figure runners on the most undaulting track in the country add to that classier more proven horses and ultra stiff fences, i think as soon as he sees the course the horse will be having an instant flash back to last marchs fall (thank goodness he got up of the floor).<br> I would love to see the horse win the Gold cup only so people cant say in years "Ah, kauto star, the best horse never to have won a gold cup" also because we need a star and a true star. At the moment he is the winter speed championship holder and he deserves that accolade but not the best super horse ever thats a crazy accolade at this moment. END OF
Quote: from johnjdonoghue on 4:39 pm on Dec. 27, 2006[br]
GH, to actually be labelled the best staying chaser would require you to actually win the the best staying race,
<br>Not entirely true, what KS has to do is beat the best stayers in A race, it does not have to be at Cheltenham imo, so far, he’s beat the best Britain has to offer easily, he’s also beat one of the best from Ireland in BoS easily, so all he has to do is beat those he’s not met yet from the Emerald Isle or elsewhere to prove himself – the track/race is immaterial imhaho
to actually be labelled the best staying chaser would require you to actually win the the best staying race
So if KS did not win the Gold Cup, and a 50/1 horse did….the 50/1 winner would be the best staying horse of the year despite KS winning the two top staying events so far of the year?
Quote: from Aidan on 4:52 pm on Dec. 27, 2006[br]
to actually be labelled the best staying chaser would require you to actually win the the best staying race
So if KS did not win the Gold Cup, and a 50/1 horse did….the 50/1 winner would be the best staying horse of the year despite KS winning the two top staying events so far of the year?
Well thats actually ridiculous Aidan. I kinda would have thought along the lines of WoA beating KS fair and square or another decent horse. I wouldn’t have been thinking along the lines of a 50/1 winner, so no.
Actually Desert Orchid was 16/1 when he won his first King George, so maybe have to see how the form works out in time.;)
JohnJ.
Quote: from empty wallet on 4:51 pm on Dec. 27, 2006[br]
Quote: from johnjdonoghue on 4:39 pm on Dec. 27, 2006[br]
GH, to actually be labelled the best staying chaser would require you to actually win the the best staying race,
<br>Not entirely true, what KS has to do is beat the best stayers in A race, it does not have to be at Cheltenham imo, so far, he’s beat the best Britain has to offer easily, he’s  also beat one of the best from Ireland in BoS easily,  so all he has to do is beat those he’s not met yet from the Emerald Isle or elsewhere to prove himself – the track/race is immaterial imhaho<br>
Empty,
Your now coming round to my way of thinking, not entirely, but nearly there. BoS has never run a race in the UK near his form in Ireland
JohnJ.
Well thats actually ridiculous Aidan. I kinda would have thought along the lines of WoA beating KS fair and square or another decent horse.
But that contradicts your arguement that to be the best staying chaser you have to win a Gold Cup. If the 50/1 outsider wins a Gold Cup how can he not (by your reasoning) be the best staying chaser if you have to win the Gold Cup to be the best???
What would happen if WOA does beat Kauto Star at Cheltenham (which I personally think is very possible) but goes on and gets stuffed by KS at Aintree and or Punchestown. Would that make WOA the best staying chaser of the year for his sole win?
The Cheltenham Festival is everything thinking is what spoils NH racing imhaho
I think Mr Johnsons horse Our Vic would have really given KS something to think about in KG, but connections think he needs rest, so fair enough, i’ll just have to wait till they meet
Aidan,
True, it does contradict what I said. But if I may correct myself…. more often then not the best staying chasers will line up in the GC. We are kinda thinking along the lines that WoA and KS would be worthy of the top two chasers on the go…. So if they came down to the last and WoA just out battled KS and the rest of the field where in a different parish, we could say of both horses the best staying chasers, thats my view.
My huge bone of contention with the KS followers is simply that they are saying he is the best staying chaser (end of). He has yet to meet WoA, who in my view is the Best Staying chaser on the go, he is by far a much more talented jumper than KS and he stayed every yard of the GC distance in last season’s race.
You can take every word or sentence literally if you want, but I rather think you know what I am on about….
JohnJ
War of Attrition is a young horse and entitled to improve but to suggest that he has achieved form the level of Kauto Star – despite winning the Gold Cup – flies in the face of every organisation that rates race horses, whether it be Timeform, the Racing Post or the official handicapper. Lets not forget that he was 15/2 when he won the gold cup and beat a horse rated only 160 in Hedgehunter. Thereafter he has beaten Watsons Lake (rated 157) twice by 10l and 11 lengths before being beaten in his last 2 races. A good horse he certainly is but he no more earns the title superstar than does Kauto Star. The quality of Gold cup winners over the years obviously varies and by no stretch of the imagination can last years be thought to be strong.
Obviously Kauto Star is not yet a superstar and if he continues to be chancy at the odd jump he may never become one but the way he has slaughtered horse like L’Ami ( beaten only 10 lengths by WAO) and won Tingle Creeks indicates to me that the Horse Rating experts are entirely correct in unanimously rating Kauto Star better than WOA.
The odds for the Gold cup quoted by the bookies look pretty right to me and I am amazed by anyone thinking differently. 6/4 is not a certainty – it just expesses the opinion that he is by far the best horse in the race but has enough flaws to keep the whole thing interesting.
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