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No, the only 2m chase Grade 1 equivalents in those days were the Cotswold (for novices) and the Champion chase, both at the Festival meeting of course.
Dreaper ran Arkle in the 3 mile Broadway chase in his novice season at the Festival, winning it by 30 lengths if my memory is correct.
Did Arkle ever run/win a Grade 1 over 2 miles?
No, he did not compete in any Grade 1 chases at 2 miles – although he did win a chase at 2m and 2m 2f and also 2m 4f.
Did Kauto Star ever win a flat race ( not a bumper !) at 1m 6f ?
Arkle did !…and he never fell during any of his races over fences !
Kauto has !
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Did Arkle ever run/win a Grade 1 over 2 miles?
No, he did not compete in any Grade 1 chases at 2 miles – although he did win a chase at 2m and 2m 2f and also 2m 4f.
Did Kauto Star ever win a flat race ( not a bumper !) at 1m 6f ?
Arkle did !…and he never fell during any of his races over fences !
Kauto has !Yes, the flat race you mention is really comparable to a couple of Tingle Creeks.. My points made perfectly….my question was just that…I didn’t know if Arkle had run in a two mile race or not. Yet straight away the "Arkle defenders" jump out and proclaim "well Kauto never carried 17 stone, over 3 miles, 2 and a half furlongs and 15 yards and win by 73 lengths"….
No horse will ever be comparable with Arkle regardless of what they achieve.
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Aidan, I think if you had been around at the time he raced you would feel the same way.
Colin
Yes, the flat race you mention is really comparable to a couple of Tingle Creeks.. My points made perfectly….my question was just that…I didn’t know if Arkle had run in a two mile race or not. Yet straight away the "Arkle defenders" jump out and proclaim "well Kauto never carried 17 stone, over 3 miles, 2 and a half furlongs and 15 yards and win by 73 lengths"….
No horse will ever be comparable with Arkle regardless of what they achieve.
As I far as I can see, no one has yet responded with the weight carrying argument ( valid as it is). A case of not seeing the wood for the trees perhaps ?
The flat race I mentioned answers your ( I assume) loaded question – which I believe was phrased to highlight Kauto Star’s versatility. Well, as it has been pointed out, 2m Grade 1 races like the Tingle Creek, were (obviously) not around in Arkle’s day.
It takes more speed to win a flat race over one and three quarter miles than it does to win any two mile chase. Arkle ran in this flat race once his jumps career had started. That’s versatility !
As for saying there won’t be another Arkle. Who knows ? Never discard any possibility – though it seems unlikely that any chaser will be asked ( or allowed ) to do what Arkle did.
To Quote Lord Oaksey :
"Those who saw Arkle will never forget the sight and, until they see another like him, they will never believe that two such miracles can happen in a lifetime."
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Well I think we have seen the new Arkle but it just so happens he’s a 2 mile champion and not a Gold Cup horse.
Master Minded at Sandown and last year at Cheltenham was amazing. Nothing I have ever seen would have beaten him at Sandown and while he wasn’t quite right at the Festival acording to Ruby he still made complete mincemeat of them.
He hasn’t achieved as much as Kauto Star and I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Kauto is the best 3 miler since Arkle. He has a tremendous travelling speed and instant acceleration but his one flaw is when he uses it you get the feeling that is it. He can’t sustain it for along period like Arkle did.
My reckoning is in 2 years time Master Minded will still be unbeaten at 2 miles and will be spoken about in te same breath as Arkle. He has the same grace and the same style about him as Arkle. He possesses that same ability to gallop all the way to the line up the Cheltenham Hill without batting an eyelid and appers to have plent left should he need it.
He beautifully balanced and barely puts a foot wrong and treats the opposition with total contempt. It’s as if they don’t have the right to be in the same race as him.
It could easily be argued Kauto has a much larger range and has echived much more which is true, but MM doesn’t run through fences nor leave us with our hearts in our mouths and to date has never run a mile below form like Kauto has.
Two great horse but when comparing to Arkle you’re comparing the wrong one IMO
Got to butt back in here.
Fist – No offence to Master Minded but his opposition over two miles are next to useless in terms of top quality. That is why Master Minded looks like a world beater 150’s – low 160’s horses. Now I know you don’t like ratings but in comparrison Kauto has at least three (possibly more haven’t checked) 170+ rated horses to contend with in other words at least ten pounds better horses. Denman, Exotic Dancer and Neptune Collonges all have a highest official rating of over 175 (possibly a stone higher than anything MM has to beat over two miles). Look at the difference in quality of opposition.
This is the point I was also trying to make regarding Arkle. The ratings back then were nonsense and best not refering to at all but the opposition isn’t irrelevant. Now its Ok saying he beat so and so by such and such lengths off such a weight but if those horses were of average quality (like Master Minded’s) its easy to over inflate the ability of a horse. You can say "yes but the horse he beat won a Gold Cup or a Hennessy" or (whatever) but something has to win those races. There is a far bigger pool of horses now and if you take away four – Kauto, Denman, Exotic and Neptune, My Will would’ve won a Gold Cup. I’d bet money in a lot of circumstances any of the first three home in the Gold cup could easily give My Will a bucketload of weight and a beating.
I think Master Minded is an absolute machine and I’m a big fan but was he really that good at Sandown? Yes he won in a canter and I enjoyed it immensely but a horse like Twist Magic looked like he was going to give him half a race turning in before falling. The Victor Chandler race was his most impressive this season I thought.
Ever since his awesome win in the 2008 Champion Chase I’ve been confident that he’s better than the great Moscow Flyer ever was but that rather workmanlike performance the other week has just made me hesitate a little.
I wasnt around to see Arkle but I’ve got the video and yes he was that good. I also remember C4 doing a feature on him with David Nicholson after Baracouda carried top weight at Sandown one day and they showed that incredible Sandown performance when he just ran away from Mill House – awesome!
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