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I didnt quite say that Fist!
But I wouldnt put BI ahead of Katchit thats for sure. I suppose a nice little form line would bear that out…
Time will tell, but I wouldnt be at all suprised (and this goes back to the original point) if the subsequent performances of the relatively young first three prove that this years race was a pretty good one
I would certainly agree that Binocular looks very exciting.
The “proof” as I have implied lies in the fact connections have avoided campaigning him over two miles this season – if they thought they had a horse capable of running to the form of his two champion hurdle victories then I suspect they would not have run him over extended distances.
The whole Sizing Europe debate hinged on whether one believed Hardy Eustace and Al Eile were good yardsticks – I happen to believe they were not.
If you are still persisting in trying to boost the AIG form using Hardy Eustace then you are being rather pig headed. Al Eile’s win at Liverpool was meaningless – he has farmed races there yet his form away from Aintree has not stood up to close scrutiny – I am sure even you must agree with that?
You still don’t get it do you?
What I initially pulled you up on was that you claimed that Hardy Eustace had “proven” that he was a back number after that race, i.e. by running once, at 3m. You then proceeded to try to make your point by referring to races that had happened previously. Please just think about it.
It is not a question of what you imagine I, pig headedly, or otherwise, make of Hardy Eustace’s form, whether I assume that horses are “yardsticks” when assessing the value of form (I don’t) or whether I think that certain parties have underassessed Katchit and by proxy many of his contemporaries (as stated, I do). It is about the questionable reasoning of the original claim you made.
Could you just clarify whether you still think that Hardy Eustace showed he was a back number by getting beaten at 3m or whether you think that from his overall record? It now appears as if it is the latter.
I am right behind Clive here with regards to Brave Inca he simply wasn’t in Katchit’s class over hurdles.
Hoho!! Good one, Fist – you’ve got me pi*ssing myself laughing at that one.
Why is that then Grasshopper? You post is nonsensicle! please if you are going to debate or disagree come up with a reason.
I am basing my statement on the fact the horse went into last seasons Champion Hurdle off the back of 2 Grade 1 wins and a Grade 1 second to a dual Champion Hurdler,,,,,,,one could say he was still at the top of his form yet he was beaten easily by what can only be described as a poor champion.
His conquerer Sublimity was absolutely trounced by Katchit and again by Punjabi.
I would say my comment based on these facts has some foundation to it whereas as your is a sarcastic one liner has no substance to it whatsoever.
I would say my comment based on these facts has some foundation to it whereas as your is a sarcastic one liner has no substance to it whatsoever.
It’s a recurring theme, Fist – you’ll get used to it.
Personally, I think your argument has less foundation than than a tree-house, but each to their own.
When Katchit has racked-up nine G1 wins, and the Champion Hurdle form has been upheld by something other than Punjabi in a trappy G1 like the Punchestown Champion Hurdle, then I might take another look – but as things stand right now, your statement is preposterous.
So we have to wait and see whether Katchit wins nine group ones (and its presumably ok for him to have quite afew defeats too…ala Brave Inca) before the form is rated?
And now of course, the Punjabi win is described as "trappy"
there is no reason at all why a young horses first top level win cannot be better than anything achieved by a horse thats won nine. Not saying that is the case here (although the face value form line indicates something…) but theres every chance that this might be a superior set of hurdlers to some recent batches
One thing is for sure, Katchit is certainly a lot quicker off the mark at this level than BI was
clivex, the supposition was that Katchit has ‘more class’ than Brave Inca…..after two wins in all-aged company. It’s baseless, and if you want to trot out an argument to say that it ain’t, then please go straight ahead.
As for the Punchestown race, exactly how would you describe a race where Ebaziyan (who has shown nothing this season) is beaten only 8L? Harchibald is past it, Sublimity is inconsistent, and both could (allegedly) have been given better rides anyway. The other two were no-hoper makeweights. It was a shabby race, and Punjabi was entitled to win it, and proved very little in doing so.
Brave Inca was beaten 3/4L into third in the Champion Hurdle on his 16th hurdles start. Katchit won the Champion Hurdle on his 13th hurdles start.
Quicker of the mark? Yes, but marginally so – not "certainly a lot".
Regardless, the measurement has sod-all to do with their respective class.
Sizing Europe would have won me the price of a new car in this years Champion-when he nudged Katchit it should have been lights out for Kings horse.I have a lot of admiration for the way Katchit battled that day.
In all fairness some of the points on this thread have been ridiculous-especially the dismissal of Al Eile,Hardy Eustace and Brave Inca.Katchit was a worthy winner this year-I honestly think we will have to see how he does next year before calling him a great champion.I would say my comment based on these facts has some foundation to it whereas as your is a sarcastic one liner has no substance to it whatsoever.
It’s a recurring theme, Fist – you’ll get used to it.
Personally, I think your argument has less foundation than than a tree-house, but each to their own.
When Katchit has racked-up nine G1 wins, and the Champion Hurdle form has been upheld by something other than Punjabi in a trappy G1 like the Punchestown Champion Hurdle, then I might take another look – but as things stand right now, your statement is preposterous.
For Pete’s sake G..there are Group 1’s and Group 1’s Mac’s joy, Harchibald on a non going day Hardy Eustace they are all tarred with the same brush.
Until you realise that we go through periods when the best hurdles and chasers don’t quite come up to scratch then you won’t quite get it.
In his entire career he never once put up a performance like Katchit did at Cheltenham in the Triumph….a perfomace he repeated at Aintree.
There’s a little horse called Binocular who is already head and shoulders above any of those who ran in the Hardy Eustace era and I didn’t have to wait for him to win 2 races to spot that.
These are exciting times I suggest you enjoy them while you can and stop harping back to a bunch of moderate would be Champion Hurdlers that will go down in history as exactly that.
You say Sublimity is inconsistant to try and back up what you are saying.
Win a novice, wins a Champion Hurdle, Runs when half fit, Doesn’t stay the trip at Cheltenham and gets beaten by Punjabi.
The horse hasn’t run often enough to be called inconsistant. He has ran 4 times when fit. won two and 2nd in another to a very very good horse in Punjabi.
For me he ran right up to his very best form leaving Harchibald in his wake.
Punjabi really quickened up from the front in that race and won it totally on merit. Sublimity may not be a Chetenham horse but on a flat galloping track he has a touch of class unfortunately not enough class to cope with the top hurdlers around today.No matter what way you look at it it appears the crop of hurdlers around today are in a different class to those we have seen since Istabraq IMO.
For Pete’s sake G..there are Group 1’s and Group 1’s Mac’s joy, Harchibald on a non going day Hardy Eustace they are all tarred with the same brush.
Until you realise that we go through periods when the best hurdles and chasers don’t quite come up to scratch then you won’t quite get it.
In his entire career he never once put up a performance like Katchit did at Cheltenham in the Triumph….a perfomace he repeated at Aintree.
Sorry Fist, but I’m afraid that I am in fundamental disagreement with you on this one, and I’m concerned that you may recently have taken leave of your senses.
If you are seriously suggesting that Katchit’s Champion Hurdle run was better form than anything Brave Inca produced in his entire career, then I can only presume that you are currently incarcerated in a sanitorium, at the pleasure of whoever is in charge of such matters in your current location.
It is perhaps the most unsustainable comment I have heard on here since me and davidjohnson were touting Lord Of Illusion as a potential National winner.
As for Binocular, I agree that he is exciting, but again, if you seriously think he is already better than a dual Champion Hurdle winner, you are clearly getting too much sun.
Of course, you nailed your colours to both the Katchit and Binocular masts very early in the season. I would obviously hope that this hasn’t affected your objectivity.
Edited to reflect “Champion Hurdle” run, rather than “Triumph”.
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