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Sea The Stars is as good a 3yo as we’ve seen for about twenty years and it is not his fault that the standard of the older horses around at the moment is poor.
IC
Though I’d maintain that Conduit didn’t run his race in the Eclipse (apparently SMS hasn’t been happy with him yet this season), it’s broadly true that there aren’t many older horses around capable of testing Sea The Stars at the moment, and even looking forward to the Irish Champion Stakes, if Tartan Bearer doesn’t run, there’s little else in the field to give us an accurate picture. Very good horse SMS undoubtedly is, until he proves himself in a proper field of top class all-age horses I’d reserve the accolade of ‘best in 20 years’.
Authorized had a very similar profile at this stage of the season, and had Frankie not made a complete ar*se of the Eclipse ride, would have been unbeaten (and arguably more impressive) and equally deserving of the praise lashed on STS. However, we all know what happened when it came to thereal
test, and it remains my view that STS has still to face his.
Incidentally I’m fairly certain that Mick Kinane once held George Washington in similar regard.Stacelita
If u put all the greats in the race with sea the stars and he beat them half a length you would still get the wallies coming out with same rubbish. UnbelievableStacelita
God forbid ‘the wallies’ should ever sink to the asinine level of the above little gem
If I may ask what
real
test would that be? Now if you say the Arc then sorry I have to disagree, that race fairly often throws up odd results. If the ground is good like it has been the last few years and he shows up in the form of his wins to date then imo he will win. What will that tell us that he beat Conduit at 12 furlongs? Is that the seal of approval he needs, beating Conduit at 12 furlongs? Conduit is simply not as good as you think he is. The KG was a putrid affair, a race long on traditon but sadly lacking for genuine equine superstars for several years now. Besides I paraphrase you from an earlier post where you thought we might have four superstars in the 3yo universe this year. STS has beaten all those with no defeats against any of them
One could argue that the real test would be next year when he is four and then needs to show his mettle under different weight conditions against the 3yo’s, unfortunately we probably wont be in for that treat. So in that context what would be the real test?
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you maintain? I Know he never ran his race
I honestly believe if see the stars goes to the Arc he’ll get cuffed.I have seen more Arcs than I care to say and much better horses than Sea the Stars have failed.It only takes one horse like Conduit.eg to come out of the clouds and Sea the Stars for me could not cope. It the horendous pace of the race and the way some horses quicken…….Imagine Sea the Stars getting his customery 1 1/2 lengths in front of Youzmain last year and in an instant Zarkava goes by….Sea the Stars is not the type of horse who could cope with that and that would worry me if was backing him in the Arc.
at 1m2f Idoubt if there’s a horse this side of the water could beat him but how on earth anything could cope with Zenyatta coming at them I have no idea, She’s a monstr in comparison to Sea the Stars…If those two were flat out at the furlong marker I think shed beat him 6 lenths such is here acceleration……Sea the Stars looked flat to the board to me at York and as impressive as he was she for me is a different league.
To be honest I think Oxx is very clever. He does not want to take on the lder horeses at 1m4f in the fear the horse gets beaten,
The King George is worth as much as the Judmonte and the Eclipse put together in both hard cashh and stud value.
He was talking rubbish when he said he wanted to give the horse time between races……Did or did not Conduit riun in both? He;s looked at the odds and thought take on the same 3 yo again over 1m2f or go over a trip I’m not even sure he’ll get and take on a St Leger and Breeders winner?
It not rocket science it’s common sense,,,,,,,,if he lost he loses millions in stud value so he took what he thought would be the easiest option.
If he wins in Ireland it won’t add much to his value but if he lost badly in the Arc it could harm him badly as they would say "Didn’t stay the Derby was a farce"………so you don’t run him..just say you are going to, then make some excuse why he can’t retire him take the money and run.I could be talking shyte but if he were a Nijinsky Oxx would have went 2000G, Derby, Eclipse, King George, Arc. Those are the races you run world beater in and thats what would have made him a legend….If he by any chance run in the Arc and defeats Conduit and Fame and Glory again I will take my hat off to him and he’ll go shooting up in my estimation.
I could be wrong but I think he’ll destroy Fame and Glory if they meet in the Irish Champion Stakes as it more StsS trip….no doubt he’s a better horse than MCM but I think he showed in the Irish Derby 1m4f + would be his best trip, not 1m2f………wtf they didn’t run him in the Leger and pick it up on the way to the Arc beats the hell out of me..I don’t fancy their AoA and I can’t see F and G winning in Ireland despite OAB’s confidence.
i think that the conduit who ran in the eclipse wasnt the same conduit who ran in the kg , i would like to watch sea the stars meets conduit over 1m4f with good pace
i still have doubts about sts stamina to be honest- Total Posts 17716
Brendan you are answering your own question/comment. If The best 3 yo doesn’t stay in training and the current best 3 year old doesn’t run of course the King George suffers.
I’ve said my bit about Oxx and don’t blame him as nowadays it’s all about stud values………the business brain has taken over and trainers/owners are over cautious so the great races of the past are no onger with us………USA is the Zenyatta and AlexA, Avoid one another and take as much out of the game as possible,
What Sea the Stars needs to do if he is going to be a "Superstar" is beat the older horses and wina true run Group 1 over 1m4f.
BTW Conduit not that good…….SMS wouldn’t agree with that one. Not that goood don’t win King George/Leger/Breeders and most likely the Arc.
Working on the same assumption as SMS Conduit improved rapidy from July to October last year. There fore of SMS is right he wouldn’t be anywhere near his best, He mainstains he was still not at his best when he won the KG and we wont see the best of the horse until the Arc……..I’ll never forget the way he quicked up twice in the Leger nor the way he did a Sea Bird in the Breeders and passed the whole filed like they were trees….if you think this is not a good horse then you’re sadly mistaken………Rip Van Winkle gained about 3-4 lengths on StS this seaon between race as did MCM I see no reason why Conduit cant….StS would be a lot neare his peak having won the Derby so I would expect there to be more improvement in Conduit add that to the trip and you’ll see an entirely different horse come the Arc
Authorized had a very similar profile at this stage of the season, and had Frankie not made a complete ar*se of the Eclipse ride, would have been unbeaten (and arguably more impressive) and equally deserving of the praise lashed on STS. However, we all know what happened when it came to the
real
test, and it remains my view that STS has still to face his.
Authorized was indeed very impressive in his Derby but I don’t think he had anywhere near the speed that Sea The Stars possesses. I very much doubt he’d have beaten Cockney Rebel in the Guineas for instance. That Eclipse was a very tactical affair and Dettori did probably get the horse beat but Authorized simply didn’t have the tactical speed to bail his jockey out. Sea The Stars has this in abundance.
He was talking rubbish when he said he wanted to give the horse time between races……Did or did not Conduit riun in both?
Conduit did run in both but he hadn’t run in the Guineas and Derby beforehand so that argument is flawed. You have to let your horse down at some time during the summer to freshen him up if your planning an autumn campaign. The only horse in recent years that I remember taking in the King George and maintaining his form right into the autumn was Dylan Thomas and he was a 4yo that year. Duke Of Marmalade tried it last year and he was gone well over the top by September/October.
The argument that John Oxx is running scared because he’s worried about damaging the horses stud value is flawed also. Sea The Stars is a classic winner over a mile and a mile and a half. He’s by Cape Cross out of the great Urban Sea, an Arc winner herself. He’s a half brother to Black Sam Bellamy and the super stallion Galileo. Breeders will be queuing up to get their mares covered by him. The pace at which the Derby was run won’t be concerning many breeders when they look at his page.
Fist Posted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:20 am Post subject:
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Brendan you are answering your own question/comment. If The best 3 yo doesn’t stay in training and the current best 3 year old doesn’t run of course the King George suffers.
I’ve said my bit about Oxx and don’t blame him as nowadays it’s all about stud values………the business brain has taken over and trainers/owners are over cautious so the great races of the past are no onger with us………USA is the Zenyatta and AlexA, Avoid one another and take as much out of the game as possible,
What Sea the Stars needs to do if he is going to be a "Superstar" is beat the older horses and wina true run Group 1 over 1m4f.
BTW Conduit not that good…….SMS wouldn’t agree with that one. Not that goood don’t win King George/Leger/Breeders and most likely the Arc.
Working on the same assumption as SMS Conduit improved rapidy from July to October last year. There fore of SMS is right he wouldn’t be anywhere near his best, He mainstains he was still not at his best when he won the KG and we wont see the best of the horse until the Arc……..I’ll never forget the way he quicked up twice in the Leger nor the way he did a Sea Bird in the Breeders and passed the whole filed like they were trees….if you think this is not a good horse then you’re sadly mistaken………Rip Van Winkle gained about 3-4 lengths on StS this seaon between race as did MCM I see no reason why Conduit cant….StS would be a lot neare his peak having won the Derby so I would expect there to be more improvement in Conduit add that to the trip and you’ll see an entirely different horse come the Arc
A case could much more easily be made for Conduit being over-rated than Sea The Stars. I myself backed him for the King George, but that was because it was a poor renewal imo, not because he’s a superstar.
He beat a couple of fillies in the St Leger. He was very impressive in the Breeder’s Cup, but the race was completely set up for him. He beat his stablemates in the King George.
Obviously he is a very good horse, but how anyone could think he would reverse the form with Sea The Stars is beyond me.
I’ve been following this sport for nearly two decades and Sea The Stars is without doubt one of the finest horses I’ve seen.
It’s not every year a horse completes the Guineas / Derby double, en route to victories in the Eclipse and International Stakes.
His Eclipse form is solid, with Rip Van Winkle claiming the Sussex Stakes and Conduit, a well beaten third, going on to land the King George.
Honestly, I wasn’t that impressed with his York performance. Sometimes, when we expect to see something spectacular and the outcome is a slight anti-climax, we still convince ourselves we witnessed something special to mask our disappoinment.
Sea The Stars didn’t beat Mastercraftsman with the authority that many have led themselves to believe and Mick Kinane had to get pretty serious at the furlong pole.
Connections have said that he only ever does enough and, looking at the way he handles himself in such an impeccable manner, I think that’s a fair comment. This laid back approach has stood him in good stead thus far, but failure to put distance between himself and his rivals will always give the opposition hope.
There’s someone that is getting tantalisingly close to beating Sea The Stars. It’s not Rip Van Winkle, but the Ballydoyle genius that is Aiden O’Brien. He’s so close he can taste it!
He seems fairly certain that Fame And Glory can exact revenge on his Epsom conqueror in Ireland and, even though I’m of the opinion that the John Oxx-trained horse will have too much speed for him over ten furlongs, you have to think Aiden has a good idea of his chances based on the proximity of Mastercraftsman to Sea The Stars at York.
Ask him who has the superior ability over ten furlongs and you would more than likely get an immediate response in favour of Fame Of Glory.
Aiden may respect Sea The Stars, but he’s determined to get him beat. Don’t think for one second that he hasn’t digested each race he’s competed in against Sea The Stars. That grey matter has been working overtime!
It wouldn’t surprise me to see Fame And Glory defeat the dual classic winner over ten furlongs, but he would have a better, if not favourites chance, over twelve.
If Sea The Stars remains unbeaten for the remainder of the season, culminating at the Breeders Cup in Santa Anita, then he will deservedly by lauded as one of the true greats.
If he continues to dominate Ballydoyle. then not only will he have Rip Van Winkle as a trophy on his mantelpiece, but Aiden O’Brien will also have a new place to call home.
At least he’ll be warm…
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IC..You talk about Sea the Stars speed……it’s the lack of that bothers me. He is a great traveller, takes very little out of himslef and that’s what allows him to keep winning, He has one burst of speed and then runs on……..he’s not lke Mill Reef eg who would cruise past horses then when Geoff Lewis push the button he was gone. Dancing Brave was in the same mould even if he was more eratic and took a little bit longer to get going. Zarkava has explosive speed and could pass an entire field within a couple of furlons, Sea Bird did it without as much as turning a hair. Nijinsky and Sir Ivor had electrifying burst of speed and Shergar ate up ground at such rate even Sea Bird might have coe off the bridle to beat him.
These were "Great" horses Sea the Stars is a good horse and there’s a world of difference….Sea the Stars won the worst Derby I can remeber and if you think he fooled the breeders into tinking he’s atop drawer 1m4f horse I’m sorry but I totally disagree,
You don’t miss a chance to win a King George mate unless sometings a miss. It’s our top race of the season next to the Derby and holds more prestige and clout with breeders than the Juddmonte ever will.
IC..You talk about Sea the Stars speed……it’s the lack of that bothers me. He is a great traveller, takes very little out of himslef and that’s what allows him to keep winning, He has one burst of speed and then runs on……..he’s not lke Mill Reef eg who would cruise past horses then when Geoff Lewis push the button he was gone. Dancing Brave was in the same mould even if he was more eratic and took a little bit longer to get going. Zarkava has explosive speed and could pass an entire field within a couple of furlons, Sea Bird did it without as much as turning a hair. Nijinsky and Sir Ivor had electrifying burst of speed and Shergar ate up ground at such rate even Sea Bird might have coe off the bridle to beat him.
These were "Great" horses Sea the Stars is a good horse and there’s a world of difference….Sea the Stars won the worst Derby I can remeber and if you think he fooled the breeders into tinking he’s atop drawer 1m4f horse I’m sorry but I totally disagree,
You don’t miss a chance to win a King George mate unless sometings a miss. It’s our top race of the season next to the Derby and holds more prestige and clout with breeders than the Juddmonte ever will.
Fist, you are equating class to mostly hold-up horses who would produce a turn of foot off a strong pace that would enable them to slice through a field and win. There’s nothing more thrilling to watch as a racing fan I’ll grant you. Sea The Stars isn’t this type of animal but that doesn’t say that he’s not classy or he lacks speed. He had the speed to lie up with the pace in a Guineas. He kicks from near the front of the field and can hold off other horses that get to his gait (e.g. Rip Van Winkle in the Eclipse). Just because he doesn’t come from behind passing numerous horses in the final furlongs and stretch clear of them like a Zarkava IMO doesn’t say that she was a better or classier horse than him.
The subsequent form of the Derby doesn’t suggest to me that it was the worst Derby in years. It wasn’t run at the usual frantic pace but both Rip Van Winkle and Fame And Glory have franked the form since and both those horses would have been good Derby winners in their own right.
I think your overestimating the prestige of the King George which has fallen back since the 70s and 80s. Breeders are only interested in speed these days and as a consequence of this races like the Eclipse, the Juddmonte and the Irish Champion have now usurped the King George. Most Derby winners these days are dropped back to ten furlongs on their next start. Aidan in particular, is always keen to drop his middle distance horses back in trip to prove their speed and enhance their stud potential (Galileo, Dylan Thomas, High Chaparral, Fame And Glory). Ballydoyle will never send their best horses to races like the Leger anymore because it does nothing for a horses reputation at stud and most winners of it will end up as NH stallions.
I don’t necessarily agree with the current obssession with speed among breeders and ultimately I think we may damage the breed in the long run. It is a reality though and until there is a sea change in attitudes, 1m4 races like the King George and staying races will continue to lose out to the marquee ten furlong races.
Alfreetreet the most likely race is the champion stakes in ireland or if the going is unsuitable the champion stakes in england.
Fist wrote: …"Shergar ate up ground at such rate even Sea Bird might have coe off the bridle to beat him."
I doubt it very much, Fist. Sea Bird would have toyed with Shergar.
Shergar, very good horse though he undoubtedly was, ran in the worst Derby I have seen – and in one of the worst times ever recorded since last 100 odd years. The opposition he faced were definitely not top notch.
Sea The Stars would have beaten Shergar, in my opinion. Admit it Fist, John Oxx’s colt is a helluva racehorse and certainly much better than you give him credit for.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
To be fair on Shergar he went on to prove his class in The Irish Derby, but its true the 1981 Epsom Derby I think is the worst Derby post war the horses were that bad he was never given a fair test though, Sea The Stars was 6 seconds faster, Lammtarra a whole 10 seconds faster.
Fist set out his stall ages ago on Sea The Stars hence why he has never tipped him once always contemplating defeat for him. Apprently he would have had no toe to beat Mastercraftsman. Wouldn’t beat Conduit, Oxx too scared to run him in the KG & QE even though Oxx said he would run in it if he competed in The Irish Derby, always faces the same competition.
Also to say the 2009 Derby is the worst Derby in recent times is absolute bullshit.
He doesn’t like to be proven wrong and would rather dig him a bigger hole. Only a BC win or an Arc will finally shut him up.
I rate Sea The Stars more highly than I did with Zarkava this time last year. In my opinion, I thought Zarkava was a bit overrated.
Just seen the race now and STS Did seem to struggle to win that but in saying that Mick Took a tug which nearly proved very costly indeed around 2f out.
As regards this horses greatness well he is by far the best this decade….Zarkava aside.
It is interesting now where he goes….i not sure he turn up for the ICS as the ground is at best soft in Ireland right now.
Not sure the Arc either may be the race for him….i think Breeders Cup on the polytrack is right up his street and shouldnt have to get out of a canter to beat those U.S.A Bunch…unless Zenyatta shows up but i cant see how her style of running can impact STS. She have to quicken twice from a long way back in the straight.
Interesting times ahead
Do you need to put the word ‘Irish’ before the word ‘Derby’ in your signature Wallace?
I honestly believe if see the stars goes to the Arc he’ll get cuffed.I have seen more Arcs than I care to say and much better horses than Sea the Stars have failed.
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