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I can recall as far back as 1976.Dermot Weld ‘s second runner in the 2yo races would be ridden by Pat Shanahan. His choice runner and most likely winner in those days was ridden by Mick Kinane. Invariably Shanahan would finish last and Kinane would win.Next time out the horse which had finished last would have the stable jockey,Kinane, aboard and would start favorite and more often than not win.From last to first without a squeak from the stewards.So there is a noble tradition in Ireland of allowing the top trainers to use the track to familiarize their horses with racing proper. I have spoken about this practice many times in the past and have been overwhelmed by forum contributors explaining how %80 fit horses were allowed to race without invoking the rules to ban their up market trainers but not explaining how permit holders who cannot afford prime training facilities are summarily dismissed with a three months ban for doing the exact same thing.
Where’s the evidence?
Value Is EverythingThe evidence of…..
a noble tradition in Ireland of allowing the top trainers to use the track to familiarize their horses with racing proper.
Value Is EverythingHorses often improve for a run. 2 year olds are often weak and/or green. Three year olds at the start of a campaign may not be quite at physical peak. Older horses can be lazy, more difficult to get fit and need to blow the cobwebs away.
Just because horses improve for a run, does not mean there is any skulduggery.
It is the punter’s job to examine the horse form, trainer’s statements, trainer’s form, examine if it is physically 100% fit. To see how likely a horse is of running well. And lastly, whether the price is value considering all the above.
Value Is EverythingTraditions don’t need proof. I just believe my own eyes, I have explained what I saw.Repeated sequences of events start traditions.That is how it goes
Blowing cobwebs away is for the gallops not the track.If I understand the rules correctly
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Blowing cobwebs away is for the gallops not the track.If I understand the rules correctly
If every trainer was banned for "getting a race into the horse", I’m afraid the only ones left would be those crafty ones who have the occasional animal trained to peak performance for one single "touch" after a long lay off, and who don’t give a cuss about their future form, welfare or improvement.
Training racehorses is a beautiful art quite as much as a science. Or do you believe that every horse that shows itself "in need of the race" should be banned (this would of course have to include 2yo animals, because we can’t have exceptions to Rules set in Stone, can we?)
Apologies to anyone feeling bullied by my previous post. That was not my intention: which was simply to encourage the carpers to rethink.
Ginger
Do you think there is a correlation between O’Brien being ‘out of form’ and him running his horses unfit?
I guess the rule should be explained to the trainers by those who wrote the rules. I didn’t make the rules. Nobody should be expected to keep impossible rules.My objection is applying the rules to the permit holders and not applying them to the big trainers of Irish racing.If you are a small trainer or a permit holder you get hauled in for using the course to train.But Aidan and others like him do it all the time and don’t get hauled in over it.
Back to basics for a simpleton like myself – if F&G "needed the run" and would "come on for the run" why didn’t he run 10f on the gallops 3 weeks ago so he’s spot on for the track?
I personally think there is too much of a grudging acceptance of this sort of thing, and before anyone fires any condescending remarks my way about "knowing the game" (far too much of this above IMO, and its irrelevant to the point really) i’m aware how things happen, i’m just not sure why they are allowed to.
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If you are a small trainer or a permit holder you get hauled in for using the course to train.But Aidan and others like him do it all the time and don’t get hauled in over it.
I think you’ve already been asked to provide specific examples of this assertion of inequality, under Irish Rules …
… or English, come to that. I can think of some pretty big trainers who have been "hauled in" for schooling in public over the last few years: although only where – unlike Fame and Glory’s run – it can clearly be judged to be outside any "grey area" at all.
Not you too, Zarkava – ffs, it isn’t compulsory to have lost money before one has an opinion.
My views on FAG have been made clear a number of times on this forum, none of them favourable.Reet, I didn’t have a bet in the race but given my relative short experience of 8 years betting in comparison to others on here, I cannot understand how anybody could possibly look at a 2/5 Aidan O’Brien horse in April and think ‘that’s value’, regardless who the horse is.
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Let’s forget the petty name calling and complete disregard for 90%+ of the paying public. It resolves nothing and certainly doesn’t bolster any argument presented.
The obvious point that seems to have been missed here by all ( and myself initially ) is that Fame And Glory is simply not a whip horse. I’ve watched every replay I could get my hands on and the whip is hardly ever used by Murtagh. In the Derby he waved it a little, in the Arc whip use was minimal. In the Irish Champion Murtagh gave a few quiet love taps for zero effect and put the stick away. The one time I witnessed the horse given a serious whack it swished its tail vigorously.
It therefore seems very doubtful that Fame And Glory finds a lot more with any extra vigour applied last Sunday. Past evidence would certainly favour Murtagh in this case.
If a trainer expected his horse to win at 2/5 he would have been terribly disappointed with his running.I would have been if he were mine and he finished third at2/5.But then again I would have been very unhappy if my horse was second fav. and he finished 2nd last of 10 runners.
Ginger
Do you think there is a correlation between O’Brien being ‘out of form’ and him running his horses unfit?
Yes I would David.
In that: It is obvious from AOB’s runners so far that very few, if any are 100% at the moment. Given his record in previous years, I’d presume it is to do with them not being fully fit, rather than a virus. AOB rarely gets a virus anyway with all the precautions he takes.
So if AOB has not got any 100% fit horses to judge F&G’s home performance against. Apart from what he actually sees in conformation, it must be difficult to judge when a horse is 100% without running them.
Stable form is (I believe) vastly under-estimated as a punter’s tool. Particularly at the start of a season.
Fame And Glory is not very big, so there is a question whether he will train on at 4.
Value Is EverythingFame And Glory is not very big, so there is a question whether he will train on at 4.
Timeform describe him as a ‘big, useful-looking colt’ Perspective for the Derby saying he’s ‘an impressive stamp of a horse’. So I’d disagree with the point of him not having the physical attributes to train on at 4.
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