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For me the problem lies in how you lot rate excellebration. Where is the proof that he’s the 3rd best horse in the world? Don’t give me this claptrap about needing depth of good horses to earn a high rating. That has nothing to do with it when you are overrating those that you are calling the good horses. Frankel’s outstanding but what is he really beating? Relying on timeform to judge uk horses is a joke.
Actually the highest rated horse of all time by Timeform was French and they would quickly tell you if they had been rating American horses at the time Secretariat would be the number 1.
If there is any prejudice towards UK horses it’s taking it’s time to show.
They could have easily made a case and given Frankel a 145 on Saturday but they didn’t. They dropped him as I said earlier.
Secretariat I believe was 144 HGM.
I’ve already explained on another thread to AIC about Sea Bird being French (along with Allez France (equal best mare). Plus Ribot being Italian etc etc… And the Timeform ratings given to Australian horses being produced by Australians (not Brits)… Black Caviar being rated the equal best mare… Best staying performance last year being rated as Americain (now trained in Australia) in finishing 4th in the Melbourne Cup…
But it makes no difference. AIC wants to believe Timeform are prejudiced, because he knows deep down AIC is prejudiced. Therefore he believes everyone else to be equally so. Judging others by his own standards.
Mate the bloke who runs racing and sports is not always right – he rated Sunline a better horse than Northerly despite Northerly kicking Sunline’s arse 3 from 3.
As for the French and Italian horse’s ratings…..well I guess I can acknowledge that there was time when the ratings process over there had a little more…..well, shall we say…..integrity?
For me the problem lies in how you lot rate excellebration. Where is the proof that he’s the 3rd best horse in the world? Don’t give me this claptrap about needing depth of good horses to earn a high rating. That has nothing to do with it when you are overrating those that you are calling the good horses. Frankel’s outstanding but what is he really beating? Relying on timeform to judge uk horses is a joke.
Actually the highest rated horse of all time by Timeform was French and they would quickly tell you if they had been rating American horses at the time Secretariat would be the number 1.
If there is any prejudice towards UK horses it’s taking it’s time to show.
They could have easily made a case and given Frankel a 145 on Saturday but they didn’t. They dropped him as I said earlier.
Secretariat I believe was 144 HGM.
That figure was so far of the mark Timeform buried their heads in the sand to the sounds of "Cheats" when they came up with it.
So they can be prejudiced when it is requiredAndrew Beyer reckoned that he would have given Secretariat a rating of 139, that would resulted in Timeform ratng him around him the 152/153 mark. Just further evidence that Timeform cook the books when it suite them.
Everything points to Secretariat being the greatest horse of all time. That performance in the Belmont was the Mona Lisa of racing, there is only one and you will never ever see anything like it if you live to be 100.
So they can be prejudice and the reason for the 144 is obvious..they simply didn’t want to admit a horse who has topped their charts for 50 years had a superior.
I think they need to run Frankel in the Grand National…..then they can say he’s the best over more than a mile!
Secretariat I believe was 144 HGM.
That figure was so far of the mark Timeform buried their heads in the sand to the sounds of "Cheats" when they came up with it.
So they can be prejudiced when it is requiredAndrew Beyer reckoned that he would have given Secretariat a rating of 139, that would resulted in Timeform ratng him around him the 152/153 mark. Just further evidence that Timeform cook the books when it suite them.
Everything points to Secretariat being the greatest horse of all time. That performance in the Belmont was the Mona Lisa of racing, there is only one and you will never ever see anything like it if you live to be 100.
So they can be prejudice and the reason for the 144 is obvious..they simply didn’t want to admit a horse who has topped their charts for 50 years had a superior.
Are you sure it is not you who’s biased HGM? Just seems as though the vast majority of horses you believe were either under-rated or so much better than everything else… lived in the 60’s/early 70’s.
Value Is EverythingIt was John Randall & Tony Morris, using Timeform’s criteria and objectively analyzing American form, who calculated that Secretariat’s rating should be 144, equal with Brigadier Gerard. Citation was given a rating of 142, Spectacular Bid 141, and Man O’ War 139.
Both Randall and Morris, two of the most respected racing authorities on the planet, remain adamant that Sea Bird was the best thoroughbred racehorse the world has ever seen.
A funny ( ? ) aside : the studious John Randall is scathing on the merits of Seabiscuit. Randall said he was the most overrated and over-hyped horse and not worthy of his legendary status – a horse whose form just doesn’t stack up. Apart form an out of sorts War Admiral, he beat nothing of note. A hard man to please ?
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
So that discussion is over. Now we must face up to the challenge world wide. Black Cavciar is coming to Ascot to face new oponents . Frankel is coming to Ascot .Why? They don’t need the money. They hardly need the accolades but they do need to prove something by coming to Ascot.What? That he can win over a mile? That he can beat the same horses in front of the Queen? I really don’t know.Can anyone enlighten me?
I’ll try.
Because it is Royal Ascot which is the biggest festival in flat racing and there is a race for him there. Simple really. Would you rather he stay at home? (don’t answer that – I know you would)
I assume you don’t bother watching Quevega every year? Or Kauto when he kept beating Exotic Dancer. Or Big Bucks?
Frankel is competing in the best Group 1 races – all comers are welcome. Unfortunately there is not a horse on the planet to touch him. Hardly his fault though.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Timeform cook the books when it suits them.
Yeh but Hurdy an overcooked Casserole sticks like Sh*t to the pan!
To this day I’ve never understood why anyone who rates themselves as a good judge needs Timeform,behind the cover lies nothing more than an individuals opinion of a racehorse,the idea of assessing a horses chance in a race is all about forming your own opinion and backing your judgement with hard cash.Timeform cook the books when it suits them.
Yeh but Hurdy an overcooked Casserole sticks like Sh*t to the pan!
To this day I’venever understood why anyone who rates themselves as a good judge needs Timeform
,behind the cover lies nothing more than an individuals opinion of a racehorse,the idea of assessing a horses chance in a race is all about forming your own opinion and backing your judgement with hard cash.
I’ll try to explain Gord…
I suppose you don’t use any other form book Gord? No Racing Post, no Sportinglife, no Raceform, no Nothing? Timeform is a form book.
Timeform are a much respected organisation who’s employees use well and tested ways of evaluating races.
The thing that you don’t seem to appreciate is it’s not about following their top rated horses. Anyone who only backed Timeform’s top rated would probably lose in the long-run, because there’s so many doing it and often allowed for in the betting. It’s a "form book"! It’s important to read the write ups and disagree with them when neccessary, which is fairly often.
Apart from ante-post I rarely bet without looking at Timeform. With ante-post there’s often excellent value to be had immediately after a prep race etc or even some time afterwards; so no need to look at Timeform.
As you Gord, concentrate on / are best at ante-post racing – you may not need Timeform.
However, relying on getting one or two big priced winners that pays for everything else plus a bit left for over all profit – is a dangerous game. Unless concentrating solely on Group 1’s it’s almost (or is) impossible to look at all relevent racing and make notes on everything – without a good form book.
I doubt whether your day of race betting Gord, shows as much profit as your ante-post betting (as indeed your "TAPK" logo suggests)
because you don’t get Timeform!
You’ve somehow got it in to your head that Timeform tell you who to back. They don’t! (Unless paying for the tipping line).
Value Is EverythingHi Jonibake,
You know what I would like but I will nevertheless state it in simple terms.I would like Frankel to do credit to Galileo and run over distances beyond a mile.He is such a wonderful specimen of the thoroughbred,beautifully formed with muscles bulging and neck arched like a stud waiting for his brood to arrive.The most beautiful racehorse I have ever seen He has to be better than just a miler and I want to see him show it to the world.I want to see him ascend the throne like Pegasos.To be the greatest racehorse we have ever watched winning races over various distances,until nobody can challenge him.I don’t want to live with the excuse that Henry was afraid to take on the world with the greatest racehorse in the world.The greatest racehorse in the world deserves better.That’s more like it Andy! I agree – I want to see him prove that as well. I truly hope by the end of the season he has been given that chance.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Hi Jonibake,
You know what I would like but I will nevertheless state it in simple terms.I would like Frankel to do credit to Galileo and run over distances beyond a mile.He is such a wonderful specimen of the thoroughbred,beautifully formed with muscles bulging and neck arched like a stud waiting for his brood to arrive.The most beautiful racehorse I have ever seen He has to be better than just a miler and I want to see him show it to the world.I want to see him ascend the throne like Pegasos.To be the greatest racehorse we have ever watched winning races over various distances,until nobody can challenge him.I don’t want to live with the excuse that Henry was afraid to take on the world with the greatest racehorse in the world.The greatest racehorse in the world deserves better.Well said Andy! Those of us that were there to witness the wonder horse said as he entered the pre-parade ring… ‘Bloody Hell he looks like a Stallion’ I’ve seen plenty of Top Class horses in the flesh over the years and ‘Frankel’ on Saturday was the coolest of the lot,he’s a very powerful colt,I’ve described him in detail before and he has an aire about him,he genuinely is a thinker,I attracted his attention several times in various places and he responded with a look of a horse who knows a thing or two! Physically he’s not as good looking as
Superior Finish
,
Strong Promise
,
Diktat
, or the Daddy of them all
Chief Singer
but he sure can run faster!
if frankel is the best around at a mile, maybe cecil takes the view "if it aint broke why not fix it" they’ve clearly taken a softly softly approach with this horse, which may be why he didn’t run in the derby. In due course he’ll step up.
I would expect ascot to be his last run over a mile. I can’t see there being much of a field for that now because he’s going to scare everything off. After that it’ll either be stepping up to ten furlongs for the eclipse and then the juddmonte and champion stakes, or going down in trip to take on the brilliant aussie mare in the july cup.
Its also possible of course that she’ll step up to take him on in the sussex, but to be quite honest I can’t see her staying a mile.
The other drawback of stepping frankel up in trip is once you go there you can’t really go back, its quite clear that his best trip is a mile, its not his fault that he’s beaten everything over that distance, once you increase his trip theres a danger that he may lose that brilliant speed.
I know i’m in the minority here, but i think Frankel ought to be stepping back in trip rather than up. I think he’d win the Nunthorpe by a street.
He may well be good enough to win at Group 1 level at anything between 5 & 10f, but i doubt the 10f will see him run to his best form.
Elgransenor1 we frankly don’t know what his best trip is yet.Perhaps it is a mile and 2 or a mile and 4 or maybe six or seven furlongs.What can we draw from his breeding?Until last year we assumed that Galileo would not get milers.How about that!Until this year we assumed that Montjue would not get milers also.So we have to find out so much for breeding if not for curiosity.Hence we race horses over many distances to discover the best for the breed.If you like I would agree with you and run against Black Caviar.But I don’t think that is going to happen.
Hi Jonibake,
You know what I would like but I will nevertheless state it in simple terms.I would like Frankel to do credit to Galileo and run over distances beyond a mile.He is such a wonderful specimen of the thoroughbred,beautifully formed with muscles bulging and neck arched like a stud waiting for his brood to arrive.The most beautiful racehorse I have ever seen He has to be better than just a miler and I want to see him show it to the world.I want to see him ascend the throne like Pegasos.To be the greatest racehorse we have ever watched winning races over various distances,until nobody can challenge him.I don’t want to live with the excuse that Henry was afraid to take on the world with the greatest racehorse in the world.The greatest racehorse in the world deserves better.Andyod,
I am sure Sir Henry is not "afraid" as such. Frankel is by Galileo, but there are other things that contribute to trip bias. Dam Kind was by sprinter miler Danehill out of Rainbow Quest mare Rainbow Lake. Danehill has got plenty of horses who stay further than he himself. Rainbow Quest finished 4th in one of the best ever 2000 Guineas in 1984 (behind El Gran Senor) but excelled at middle distances, winning the Arc (on disqualification of Sagace). Rainbow Lake won the Group 3, 1m4f Lancashire Oaks by 7 lengths.
Despite plenty of stamina in Kind’s pedigree she failed to stay further than 7f and best at sprint distances, winning listed races at both 5 and 6 furlongs. Where as Kind’s siblings tended to stay further, including half brother Powerscourt (by Saddler’s Wells) who stayed 1m4f well, winning Voltigeur and disqualified in Arlington Million.
As well as breeding;temperament
plays a big part in how far a horse stays. One that wants to get on with it, taking a hold – will often not stay as far as breeding suggests. A lazy or relaxed horse who settles very well – will often stay further than his/her pedigree suggests.
Frankel was far too free in the Greenham, not letting his pacemaker Picture Editor lead. Which was no doubt the reason why connections decided to let Frankel make all in the 2000 Guineas. Even so, again ran free and very much doubt it was the plan to be so far clear at halfway. Immediately afterwards I laid Frankel for the Derby, no chance of settling enough to stay 1m4f.
In the St James, was allowed to go too fast early (jockey error) and scraped home.
Settled a bit better in Sussex Stakes…
And a bit better still in QEII, but it took time for him to drop the bit.
I was there at Newbury and it is encouraging to see a more relaxed Frankel in the preliminaries. Though still has a lip chain. A similar type, Dubai Millenium also had a lip chain to help settle him in the prelims. Although not entirely settled in the race itself early on; it seems to be getting better with every run.
Despite his breeding, before Saturday I did not believe Frankel would be as good at 1m2f, due to wanting to get on with it a little too much. But although there’s still a few doubts in my mind, I now think he’ll probably be equally effective at the longer trip…
However, I don’t blame Sir Henry for wanting another race (or two) at a mile, by that time Frankel should be entirely settled and ready for another quarter mile.
There might not seem that much difference in speed of a 1 mile race and mile and a quarter. But there is between a strongly run mile and slowly run mile and a quarter. Where as at a mile Sir Henry is happy to see his charge go to the front and go at his own pace; doubt if he’d be over the moon at the longer distance if Frankel starts to race freely. Might not get home. All considerations when upping a horse in trip.Value Is EverythingI know i’m in the minority here, but i think Frankel ought to be stepping back in trip rather than up. I think he’d win the Nunthorpe by a street.
He may well be good enough to win at Group 1 level at anything between 5 & 10f, but i doubt the 10f will see him run to his best form.
I agree, think Frankel would be capable of showing his form at sprint distances. Problem being if training him for and racing in sprints it would light him up. There’d then be little chance of getting 10 furlongs.
I’d like them to postpone going up in trip to next year and go down to 7f. Taking on Black Caviar in a match over that trip at York.
Value Is Everything
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