- This topic has 301 replies, 42 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 6 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
and what about the slaughter of Israeli women and children by Hammas – but of course that is different isn’t it?
Just as a matter of interest how much time have you actually spent in Israel / West Bank / Gaza – or do you just rely on the media, who you seem to scorn at every opportunity elsewhere, for the "facts".
The fact that the Israeli army is refusing to allow international journalists into Gaza despite being instructed to do so by the Israeli supreme court makes finding anything out very difficult. We either have to rely on official army sources or whatever news reports Hamas or arab journalists are able to make.
Israel had shown willing to an extent as far as Gaza was concerned by forcibly removing illegal Jewish settlers from the strip but it wasn’t enough for Hamas to stop the rocket attacks. The fact that they are only able to fire crappy unguided rockets is testament to the efficacy of the Israeli blockade rather than any unwillingness on Hamas’ part to use anything more lethal.
We have had decades of short termist fudge in terms of this conflict and it only looks likely to continue. The US isn’t going to desert Israel, the neighbouring arab countries have tried twice to drive the jews out militarily and been humiliated both times, and apart from Syria and Iran, Hamas have few friends in the arab world at a government level, most moderate arab governments (such as they are,) are trying to keep a lid on the extremists in their own countries and don’t want to be seen to supporting them abroad.
I feel very sorry for the ordinary Palestinians and Israelis but while they keep electing such bellicose leaders and there is no serious international consensus on what to do, there is no end in sight. A ceasfire asap is what is needed in the short term to stop the bloodshed but until Hamas recognise Israels right to exist then there will be no meaningful negotiation.
Hamas pose no realistic military threat to the state of Israel.
They are actively seeking that threat capability, hence the Israeli security concerns.
I have to disagree strongly with that, Cav.
Hamas are not looking to put together tank battalions or an air force. They might be looking for longer-range rockets, but that’s about it, and they will never pose a ‘realistic military threat’ to Israel.
As I understand it, Israeli general elections are due within the next 3-6 months. The current escalation can – in part at least – be attributed to that, I reckon.
[b:3dsao0b8]“Palestine is an Islamic land consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day and that no Arab leader had the right to give up any part of this territory.”[/b:3dsao0b8]
“Reconciliation with the Jews is a crime.”
“Israel must disappear from the map”
“We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory”Sheikh Ahmed Yasin – co founder of Hamas
Jews living in Israel are afraid of that, I dont blame them.
Firefox. The rockets arent fired by a "few morons". It is being condoned supplied and supported by the elected administration of Gaza.
How else, other than the current approach, do you think they are going to stop this? Or as some on the left seem to think, the jews should just take it should they?
Cav. Spot on. It is only a matter of time of course. I believe Israel should have gone in earlier and perhaps harder. By waiting this long, they have shown massive restraint
Very good post Seven towers
Spot on Clive – I echo everything you said in that post.
I really am most surprised Israel did not go in sooner – I wass expecting it three or four months ago at least.
Hamas are not looking to put together tank battalions or an air force. They might be looking for longer-range rockets
LOL,. So thats alright then isnt it. Nothing to worry about.
Unbelievable….
Quite incredible given that given much of Hamas’s racist beliefs and enthusiasm for actual genocide, the next obvious step will be chemical and biological weapons warheads as soon as they can get hold of them
There are senior Hamas leaders who have called for genocide of jews worldwide. Did Hitler or Pol pot even make their intentions so clear?
Cav… this quote should be added to… Although many on the left will not be unhappy with the racial element to Hamas’s attacks…
Mahmoud Zahar, the Hamas leader, issued a warning this week to Jewish parents: Your children, he said, are targets:
"They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine," Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location. "They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people."
Firefox, the root cause of today’s problems in Palestine go far further back than 1945.
Firstly why would it matter if i was jewish or not? Why has this always got to have a racial or tribal element?
Anti semitism is rife on the far left. That is hardly a secret. Its not everyone on the left by any means but the love in between radical muslims and the far left (the far left drools over the bigotry and mind control exercised by the islamists) is one of the most laughable and transparently hilarious developments of recent years.
Perhaps i could refer you back to your objection to the Anne frank programme lest it upset "radical muslims"?
the arab neighbours are showing very muted support for Hamas. Only Iran and Syria have piped up to any extent (and Syria are seemingly acting differently behind the scenes). The arabs know full well that Israel had to react and quite frankly they would possibly even been suprised at the level of restraint so far
The present situation is best described in this excellent article today in the Times
The poverty and the death and the despair among the Palestinians in Gaza moves me to tears. How can it not? Who can see pictures of children in a war zone or a slum street and not be angry and bewildered and driven to protest? And what is so appalling is that it is so unnecessary. For there can be peace and prosperity at the smallest of prices. The Palestinians need only say that they will allow Israel to exist in peace. They need only say this tiny thing, and mean it, and there is pretty much nothing they cannot have.
Yet they will not say it. And they will not mean it. For they do not want the Jews. Again and again – again and again – the Palestinians have been offered a nation state in a divided Palestine. And again and again they have turned the offer down, for it has always been more important to drive out the Jews than to have a Palestinian state. It is difficult sometimes to avoid the feeling that Hamas and Hezbollah don’t want to kill Jews because they hate Israel. They hate Israel because they want to kill Jews.
There cannot be peace until this changes. For Israel will not rely on airy guarantees and international gestures to defend it. At its very core, it will not. It will lay down its arms when the Jews are safe, but it will not do it until they are.
And if you reflect on it, doesn’t recent experience bear this out? Just as Herzl was borne out? A year or so back I met a teacher while I was on holiday and fell to talking with him about Israel. He was a nice man and all he wanted was for fighting to stop and to end the suffering of children. And he had a question for me.
Why, he asked, doesn’t Israel offer to give back the West Bank and Gaza? Why doesn’t it just let the Palestinians have a state there? If the Palestinians turned it down, he said, then at least liberal opinion would be on Israel’s side and would rally to its assistance.
So I patiently explained to this kind, good man that Israel had, at Camp David in 2000, made precisely this offer and that it had been rejected out of hand by Yassir Arafat, not even used as the basis for negotiation. I told him that Israel was no longer in Gaza, having withdrawn unilaterally and taken the settlers with it. The Palestinians had greeted this movement with suicide bombs and rockets. Yet the teacher, with all his compassion, wasn’t even aware of all this. And liberal opinion? Sad to relate, my new friend’s faith in it was misplaced. It has turned strongly against Israel.
Israel has made many mistakes. It has acted too aggressively on some occasions, has been too defensive on others. The country hasn’t always respected the human rights of its enemies as it should have done. What nation under such a threat would have avoided all errors?
But you know what? As Iran gets a nuclear weapon and so the potential for another Holocaust against the Jews and world opinion does nothing, I am not so sure that the errors of world opinion are so much to be preferred to the errors of Israel.
Just another thought. In politics rhetoric flourishes. Just because a politician says something it does not mean he genuinely believes it, or that he will carry it out.
Not good enough. In fact i find these sentiments sinister.
Apart from the fact that it is hardly condusive to decent leadership and is certain to drive forward racist feelings amonsgt the impressionable, it is clear double standards to excuse such sentiments
Obviously in the somehwat incredible event of a western leader was coming out with such statements the left would be howling from the rooftops. But because it is the beloved jihadists, they "dont really mean it".
As a perfect illustration of the confused thinking and the moral bankruptcy of the left as could possible be seen. This is not the first time that excuses have been made for calls for genocide on this forum
Quite incredible….
Yes. The right of a nation to defend itself from continuous attack is an "extreme view".
I am tired of you continually trying to find out my race to justify your prejudices
Without doubt there is an undercurrent of anti semitism within much of the far left. We are all well aware of Livingstones comments for one and much has been expsoed about the WRP’s connections, but to give one example, the way the much of far left threw its unequivocal support behind a leader (nasrallah) who has called for the extermination of all jews worldwide, is proof enough
What I disagree with is the heavy handed tactics employed which have resulted in a kill rate 40 times greater than the rate at which their citizens were killed from rocket attacks.
What in your opinion would be an acceptable response from Israel?
why not pinpoint the Hamas perpetrators and assassinate them,
Your suggestion has already been implemented…..it hasn’t worked.
Cav – while I don’t have a ready solution to the problem of rocket attacks, do you personally think the loss of innocent civilian life in Palestine (and formerly Lebanon) is acceptable?
For a start, the idea that Israel should back down because of the risk iof "radicalising" muslims is crazy. You may as well say that Britain shouldnt have defended itself in the second world war incase they created more nazi sympathisers
Secondly we have had a James Bond solution and " I dont know" to Cavs question. I think that says it all frankly….
Thats the problem db, nobody has any alternatives to what Israel should be doing to defend itself yet the same people are right in there with condemnation all the same. Its all very easy to say what’s acceptable and whats not acceptable from an armchair thousands of miles away.
The Israeli’s on the other hand have a daily terror reality to deal with. Personally I think its regrettable but necessary and Hamas should NOT be let off the hook on the issue.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.