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Is Kings Theatre (RiP) the NH sire to follow ?

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  • #20694
    Alexander
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1181

    It seems to me that everytime I read something positive to do with racing, up pops that Sire, Kings Theatre. (Died June 2011)

    I note this week that the handicap chase ratings have as their most hiked; Mr Chow (105 to 124 +19lbs) with Quincy des Pictons (FR) as the highest +20lbs. Yes, you have guessed it – Mr Chow is by Kings Theatre. He runs Southwell 1.40pm today and escapes the revised rating, notwithstanding his 7lb penalty. Be warned he is prone to mistakes, understatment, so best watched me thinks.

    I would like to rate some of these sires. What is a good measure for a Sire under NH rules. Any suggestions ?

    #385536
    Eclipse First
    Member
    • Total Posts 1569

    Rating NH sires is very much retrospective. Often they are dead before their merit in the NH sphere is appreciated. I had a look at his best flat progeny and there are a significant number of French trained and/or bred in the top ten, mostly from his early crops. His NH top progeny are now mostly coming from matings with dams by proven NH sires like Strong Gale and Roselier.
    Like following any sire, it pays to look at the percentages of winners to runners and more importantly stakes winners to runners. The Post used to publish these statistics midweek space permitting and I would suggest this is the best starting point to formulate some sort of table of merit.

    #385550
    thisthatandtother
    Member
    • Total Posts 149

    This is a very interesting thread for me.

    I didn’t know that Kings Theatre had died, and sorry to hear that.

    My favourite NH sire is Bob Back who was pts in January last year. I was lucky enough to be able to visit him at Burgage Stud in June 2009, he had a lovely home and looked in great condition then. At the moment he has a few at the top or getting there (hopefully) in Bobs Worth, Burton Port, Boston Bob, Back in Focus. He is also the damsire of a few broodmares. He has been in the top 10 NH sires for a long time.

    Big Bad Bob, a son of Bob Back is up and coming too.

    #385552
    Eclipse First
    Member
    • Total Posts 1569

    It may take a few years but I would expect Catcher in the Rye to make an impact. Coolmore have made his fee very attractive. He has already been mentioned on another thread a couple of months ago.

    #385557
    moehat
    Participant
    • Total Posts 8181

    Wasn’t he top sire at Cheltenham the other year?

    #385563
    Alexander
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1181

    I’ve done a back of the envelope calculation to rate NH sires :
    Averages from number of runs re top ten earners in years 2011 & 2010 then % of 500K + averages for the Racing Post rating ( ..).

    A few calculations as above plucked this afternoon:
    Sires
    Oscar = 34% (153)
    Presenting = 30% (145)
    Kings Theatre = 23% (155)
    Bob Back = 15% (148)

    #385567
    Miss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1335
    #385569
    Eclipse First
    Member
    • Total Posts 1569

    I’m afraid at a stud fee of $150,000 he isn’t likely to be on the radar for many National Hunt breeders, he hasn’t made the top 30 in the GB NH sires list as far as I can see, Always appears to be his best chaser in UK and Ireland, he won an early season Grade 2 chase at Gowran in 2005.

    Even on the flat, he has relatively few runners in the UK although the strike rate is respectable.

    #385576
    Venusian
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1665

    As with flat sires you have to look at the ratio of black type (and other) winners to foals. Many jump sires cover huge books of mares, sometimes producing around 150 foals a year, and it’s easy to get carried away by a few headline makers on the racecourse and forget about the large number of non-achievers. Oscar, for example, while you couldn’t say he was a

    bad

    sire, has had enormous books ever since he retired to stud, and this has perhaps made his record appear rather better than it actually is.

    On balance, I’d say that Presenting is probably the best active sire standing in the UK or Ireland.

    Stowaway is worth a mention. He’s 18 now, has had few chances, but he’s at last gaining recognition as a sire and had a mega-book of 320 mares last year. That must be close to doubling the total number of mares he’s ever covered in his life!

    #385581
    Aragorn
    Member
    • Total Posts 2208

    Network is the NH sire to follow. Especially over fences.

    #385584
    Alexander
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1181

    Interesting links and replies.
    On my basic last two season breakdowns neither Dynaformer or Stowaway figure with any prominence.Cadoudal, Oscar, Presenting, Network, and Kings Theatre are the leaders, but many more to check. So far:=

    Cadoudal 45% (146)

    of Long Run & Big Bucks fame


    Oscar 34% (153)
    Dom Alco 34% (142)
    Presenting 30% (145)
    Network 30% (137)
    Astrabad 26% (124)
    Kings Theatre 23% (155)
    Saint Des Saints 23% (125)
    Montjeu 20% (138)
    Flemensfirth 19% (146)
    Trempolino 18% (125)
    Al Namix 17% (125)

    #385595
    Miss Woodford
    Participant
    • Total Posts 1335

    I’m afraid at a stud fee of $150,000 he isn’t likely to be on the radar for many National Hunt breeders, he hasn’t made the top 30 in the GB NH sires list as far as I can see, Always appears to be his best chaser in UK and Ireland, he won an early season Grade 2 chase at Gowran in 2005.

    Even on the flat, he has relatively few runners in the UK although the strike rate is respectable.

    Oh I agree, but most of his jumping offspring weren’t bred with jumping in mind, they’re rejects from the big breeders. And then there’s rich Englishmen like Bill Pape, Jonathan Sheppard, and George Strawbridge who can shell out that kind of money.

    #385599
    cjboy
    Member
    • Total Posts 127

    The most overlooked stallion still around is ASTARABAD.

    A bargain too.

    CB

    #385635
    obiwankenobi
    Participant
    • Total Posts 349

    A very overlooked stallion is Witness Box, he only covers around 50 mares a year.

    #385655
    thehorsesmouth
    Participant
    • Total Posts 5551

    I’m not sure but think I may have heard somewhere that a lot of Witness Box’s are wrong on their wind :?:

    If I had a decent mare now I’d be bringing her to Robin Des Champs.

    #385681
    mdwillis
    Member
    • Total Posts 82

    Beat Hollow has had some winners in novice hurdles and bumpers recently including Cinders and Ashes and Hollow Tree I wonder if he will be offered to NH breeders over the coming years. I also like to see Tiger Hill become a jumps sire as well he has had a few bumper runners too.

    #385706
    Irish Stamp
    Member
    • Total Posts 3181

    You’d be better off sticking with a young sire who’s going places and will be a top sire for years to come – Westerner.

    He’s already sire of Never Forget a Group 2 winner in his first crop and the Grop 2 winning hurdler Katkovana from the same crop in addition to Absolutely True who won this year as a 2yo and potentially very decent hurdler (dual bumper winner) Blossom Gate, Paul Nicholls impressive bumper winner Vrai Vert, the Fairyhouse bumper winner from last Sunday The Westener Boy (trained by Mags Mullins, also won a P2P) and plenty of pointers with promise in addition to the potentially top notch (I think he will be anyway) Nicky Henderson ex-Irish pointer Minella Forfitness.

    Westerner is a top sire and will be a huge name in NH breeding for years to come – particularly when his progeny get decent ground.

    Martin

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