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I know this has been covered before but I cant find the thread. I understand the UK handicapper will assess each Irish horse individually but is there a general rule of thumb to convert Irish ratings to their UK equivalent for National Hunt?
I got an answer on this from Marcus Weedon last year. The UK handicappers keep their own ratings for Irish horses. they feel there has been major slippage in Ireland, especially at the lower end of the scale. it’s a poor reflection on the Irish handicappers, IMHO.
Quite a few Irish come over to Scotland so I’m used to comparing ratings.
At lower levels it looks to me as if the UK ratings are 10-14lbs higher than those of the Irish Handicapper.
Take December Sun who runs in a handicap chase at Musselburgh this afternoon. His Irish rating is 105 but he runs off 117 at Musselburgh. As a slight contrast though, the same trainer has Mick Finan in an early event, Irish rating 91 UK rating 95.
However, if you look at the two Hennessy entries from Ireland, Slim Pickings and Royal County Star, they seem to be on the same mark both sides of the Irish Sea.
Rob
The hurdlers will tend to be worse than the chasers. Worth going an having a look back at the Paddy Power meeting, quite a few Irish horses came over for that, but I’d echo the point made by davidbrady that there really is no rule of thumb.
I’ve had at a look at this in the past and found no ‘general rule of thumb’.
I disagree this being a ‘poor reflection’ of the Irish Handicaper. It’s just a different scale. The days of the ‘Irish Good-Things’ (if they ever existed) do appear to be over but this is a result IMV of a concerted policy of the British OH & BHA to over-rate the Irish horses at the request of British Trainers.
I think it’s a poor reflection because I can’t see for the life of me why handicap marks on both sides of the water can’t be equivalent- if the Irish handicap were accurate this would be very easy, however as Marcus says, there seems to be a culture of "giving horses a chance" (my words, not his) which means lightly raced horses especially are well in. The current situation is unsatisfactory for punters, trainers and owners who find the difference in ratings unfathomable, unsurprisingly.
Makes it all the more bizarre and completely unacceptable that they also operate with a different weight for age scale for the 4 and 5-y-o chasers and yet still produce jointly prouduced Anglo-Irish classifications, this despite the fact that if Tatenen runs in Graded company in Ireland, the Irish Handicappers will rate the performance significantly lower than the BHA would.
Surely, the sole responsibility of the Irish OH is to Irish Racing – Races in Ireland.
I reckon the key difference is the approach to giving novices an initial mark. Take Ballydub today in the Newbury 2:05 – for winning a maiden hurdle he was given a mark of 124. I don’t think any Irish maiden hurdle winner has ever been given a mark that high.
I don’t see that as inefficiency on either side, it’s just two alternative ways of working. If the Irish handicapper started awarding higher marks to novices, it would need a major change to their handicap program as so many of the races have a relatively low top rating.
The handicap hurdle at Fairyhouse on Sunday is worth 18,000 Euros, but is limited to horses rated 123 or lower – the same sort of money in the UK would mean a race rated 0-130 or 0-135.
The handicap hurdle at Fairyhouse on Sunday is worth 18,000 Euros, but is limited to horses rated 123 or lower – the same sort of money in the UK would mean a race rated 0-130 or 0-135.
Is that not more a reflection on the level of investment in the sport on both sides of the Irish sea though as opposed to actual handicap marks.
Do you mean that the horses in the top echelons of a 0-123 hcp in Ireland would be competitive off, say, 130 in the UK
As carvillshill said, I don’t see why we can’t have a universal handicap system across both islands. It might take a bit of work (and bruise some egos) but in the long run, it would be better for the sport (not that that matters to anybody!)
Incidentally, is there a rule of thumb for UK horses coming over to Ireland?
As far as I’m aware they race off their BHA marks. No wonder so few bother going across.
As far as I’m aware they race off their BHA marks. No wonder so few bother going across.
That is incorrect…..bar Nicholls (recently) British trainers are not bothered to come across for non-handicaps as much as handicaps…so hardly an excuse.
Are you saying that it is incorrect that British horses run off BHA marks in Ireland, Aidan?
Are you saying that it is incorrect that British horses run off BHA marks in Ireland, Aidan?
No what I am saying is it is wrong to say all British trained horses running in Ireland run off the BHA mark….they dont.
The higher graded animals (140s plus) will run close to their BHA marks….but anything lower is revaluated by the Irish handicapper.
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