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I mentioned on another thread that any horse would jump with more confidence the firmer the underfoot conditions. Mark TT disagrees, specifically saying that some jump better out of soft ground. I didn’t want to derail that thread and I thought it would make an interesting debate, not just for Mark and me.
I accept I’m generalising but I believe such generalisation excludes only horses who fear jarring themselves due to unsoundness or a previous bad experience. I’m talking of proper good jumping ground, not fast ground. I believe any sound animal would prefer the mental reassurance that, at takeoff, there is minimal chance of slipping. Also, I’m assuming less energy is required, though physics gurus might well produce a counter argument.
Very very best jumpers tend to be good ground horses. Probably because fluent moving, top-of-the-ground horses are more conducive to the best fast jumping technique. However, this is only a general rule. When a horse prefers/enjoys softer going – producing its best form on soft ground – then I’d expect it to jump better out of soft going. There are fewer excellent jumping horses on a soft surface, may be because many soft ground animals have a less fluent round action not as conducive to fast jumping.
…But that’s just talking about the very best jumpers. Can understand the theory softer ground takes more energy to jump out of. However, just as a horse often jumps better once going up in trip because it is moving slower and therefore has more time to sort itself out… Same is true about soft ground. I believe this trumps the “more energy” theory. When we’re talking about those with an average jumping technique they often jump better out of softer ground. Though again, a horse whose action and preference for/enjoys good going – producing its best on good – I’d expect to jump better out of good going.
Also, I believe for less flamboyant jumpers it’s a case of the softer the better. If a horse likes to pop over obstacles it will lose ground to one with the archetypal fast jumping technique when racing on good ground; therefore is more likely to be under pressure. Very soft helps this type no end; because of the speed it’s jumping at is a lot slower and the fast jumping horse is less effective. Poor jumping horses often jump better out of bottomless ground. I’ve never done so, but if going through horses rated with an “X” for poor jumper in Timeform – I’d expect most to have a better record on heavy going.
Value Is EverythingGT, I wouldn’t dispute for a moment that some horses are advantaged in their jumping by the way soft ground slows the pace, but that’s not the question, or at least not the one I had in mind. I suspect that a workmanlike jumper, or even a poorish jumper would still prefer to jump off ground with a decent footing. The fact that many in a race might do so more slickly doesn’t alter that.
I often walk out to the jumps when racing (though it’s not permitted, sadly, nearly so much as it used to be). But standing at the take-off side of any jump after a soft ground race and seeing the mess of skids and gouges (often worse than on the landing side) leaves me in no doubt that a horse cannot jump out of it with anything like the confidence he would on good ground.
It’s probably a bit like motor racing. In wet weather the poorer cars can do better purely because there isn’t as much influence on out and out power & speed.
I also do not believe that any horse would jump better out of very soft ground it just makes them look better than they would be in comparison to a faster rival in good ground. Conversely the ‘better’ horse is made to look worse by the less sure footed conditions.
Some horses do have bigger wider hooves making it easier to navigate the heavy ground than those with less surface area to spread their weight. Probably some also have a specific running style / leg action that makes easier work of heavy ground. However even with that heavy ground wil always make jumping more tricky.
Don’t think I can put it any clearer than the above post, Joe. Am disagreeing with you for the reasons already given.
Value Is EverythingDon’t think I can put it any clearer than the above post, Joe. Am disagreeing with you for the reasons already given.
Mark, I suspect, at the core of this we are talking about two different things. It’ll be useful when Mark TT comes along and expands on his perception. I have very few issues with what you say, it’s the interpretation of the issue. Yes, some horses prefer to jump at a slower pace – correlated with soft ground, but, as you know, correlation isn’t causation. Would that animal jump even better at the soft ground pace if the going were good? Unanswerable, but what do you think?
What I don’t buy is the high-actioned horse perhaps preferring soft: jumping is almost all back end work where the galloping action has no influence. And that backend action is crucial in the debate. I’d even say that hurdlers have a greater preference for jumping off good ground than do chasers because the take off plane is shallower, and they do not get their hocks deeply underneath them making them more prone to slipping than when jumping a fence.
GT,
I often walk out to the jumps when racing (though it’s not permitted, sadly, nearly so much as it used to be). But standing at the take-off side of any jump after a soft ground race and seeing the mess of skids and gouges (often worse than on the landing side) leaves me in no doubt that a horse cannot jump out of it with anything like the confidence he would on good ground.I am in no doubt that a lot of horses preference/confidence for running on soft ground and slower speed (more time to judge the fence)… more than makes up for any “slippage” etc…
…Which in turn means he can “jump out of” soft with a lot more “confidence” than it would on good ground.
Value Is Everything…I also believe some display a technique which is much better suited by jumping out of soft ground. So imo it is not surprising some horses both prefer and jump better out of soft ground than they do good.
Value Is EverythingAs a general answer to your general question, Joe, it is harder to jump out of softer ground. The number of falls/unseats/mistakes in a soft ground National are consistently higher than in a good going one. The National might be seen as an extreme example to use but as such might be said to more clearly highlight the same trend at shorter over park fences. Chris.
Joe – in general, I would agree that a horse (regardless of ability) jumps better off a sounder surface. This is as much a confidence thing, for both horse and rider, as well as to do with the ease/efficiency by which a horse can generate upward/forward momentum at take-off, all of which comes from what’s going on with the hind legs – see the link below which is the best biomechanics graphic/explanation that I can find of what is going on when a horse jumps. Going though is a hugely sensitive variable in this. Firmer ground after a shower, for example, is an absolute nightmare for slipping; boggy, deep, glue pot stuff (like Sandown often is in December!) is a different sort of challenge – ‘slipping’ here is more sinking in on take-off, which can add as much as 6 inches or more to a regulation steeplechasing fence (4’ 6”). So, multiply that by the need to jump 22 such fences over 3 miles and one starts to see how much more effort is required simply to jump round.
For me this is quite an interesting (if nerdy!) topic. One of the things that I found most striking about NH initially when I first got into it was that horses do not have studs fitted to their shoes. Although the contrast with racing/hunting is sometimes pointed out, studs are pretty much universal for competing in eventing and show jumping, where they are seen to provide the necessary traction for jumping. Most horses would have 2 studs fitted into their shoes, front and rear; some have 3 or more. There are all sorts of studs for use on all sorts of going – see the link below. An American Farrier article I found (third link below) suggests that the absence of studs on American steeplechasers is to do with protecting the hallowed grass from being ripped up.
The best comparison I can think of for those who don’t/haven’t ridden is to think of the importance of traction to running and say the difference between running cross country (where mud claws are a must) and running on the roads and pavements (where cushioned soles are a must). Then factor in trying to jump hurdles or steeplechase barriers on a muddy course! I wouldn’t want to be trying to do that with road running shoes on!!!
http://www.equinew.com/jumping.htm
https://www.americanfarriers.com/articles/775-helping-a-racehorse-to-the-winners-circleI mentioned on another thread that any horse would jump with more confidence the firmer the underfoot conditions. Mark TT disagrees, specifically saying that some jump better out of soft ground. I didn’t want to derail that thread and I thought it would make an interesting debate, not just for Mark and me.
I accept I’m generalising but I believe such generalisation excludes only horses who fear jarring themselves due to unsoundness or a previous bad experience. I’m talking of proper good jumping ground, not fast ground. I believe any sound animal would prefer the mental reassurance that, at takeoff, there is minimal chance of slipping. Also, I’m assuming less energy is required, though physics gurus might well produce a counter argument.
You’ve added a caveat Joe that would have been one of my main arguments – fear of jarring themselves. I’ve seen horses who are normally fine going a specific way round or at a particular course jump so alarmingly to one side that it’s likely they’re trying to avoid the obstacle itself because they don’t want to jump on the ground.
Some horses will feel more confident, more assured in soft ground and thus jump with greater enthusiasm and better technique.I remember the 1994 National, back when i started taking a keener interest in horse racing, and reading about the chances of Just So ( i think it was Scudamore in the Daily Mail ). A mud lover whose best performances were when he could get his hock in, nevermind his toe. He finished second.
That was the National and a perfect example of when some horses will jump with ” more confidence ” ( your original term in the Albert Bartlett thread ) when it is soft.
Fair enough, Mark, but I was talking about racehorses in general in my original comment – not an unreasonable approach, I think. Your questioning of it seems confined to horses with physical or mental issues. I’m not sure I want to cross that many i’s and dot that many t’s when posting, although, looking back, it would have been a sensible clarification to make.
As for Just So and soft ground, it takes us back to the point I made to GingerT – is it the soft ground that’s helping them or the slower pace of jumping?
I’m of the same mind as Titus in that (and I don’t think this anthropomorphic): what type of ground would you rather jump out of? There’s a difference in that horses have four limbs, but none in that they are using only fifty percent of those limbs in jumping.
I said it would have been one of my main arguments.
Another was the Just So example – mud lovers will jump better in soft ground. It’s not simply a case of them lacking the pace on Good ground, is it ?
There’s no way of knowing if a soft ground horse would jump just as well on good ground if the pace was slowed to soft ground pace, assuming he has no physical problems. That’s probably the key to the debate, which could just as well have been headed: “Do soft ground horses benefit from the ground itself or from the slower pace?”
Anyway, I’m reaching the going round in circles area and there’s no more I can usefully add. It was worth debating, I think.
I said it would have been one of my main arguments.
Another was the Just So example – mud lovers will jump better in soft ground. It’s not simply a case of them lacking the pace on Good ground, is it ?
Spot on, Mark.
You say there is no knowing whether a horse jumps better due to the ground rther than speed, Joe.
Some horses that jump poorly on good going will jump better on softer ground.
For some of those horses the slower speed they’re travelling makes the difference. Agreed.
However, some horses are equally effective jumping at different distances provided they have their beloved soft going. ie The horse is going faster at the lesser trip than it is at the greater distance and yet the horse jumps equally as well. This imo proves some horses jump better out of soft ground due to enjoying running on that particular surface. Because if it were purely down to speed then the horse would not jump as well at the shorter trip.
Why would a horse jump better at a shorter trip on soft than it would at a longer distance on good, if they’re going the same speed?
Value Is EverythingGT, I can’t add much more here and did not intend to come back in, but it would be discourteous to ignore your direct question.
It’s all pretty speculative and far from a precise science, but my guess would be (in answer to your question)…
There is a range within which a horse is comfortable jumping (for example, say, between 25mph and 30mph) whatever the ground. Horses taken outside that range (and this would include those whose preference is faster ground) – at either end of it – will lose confidence and jumping efficiency. Ask a horse to jump cleanly off a run up at 10mph and it would fare no better than at a run up of 40mph, I’d imagine. It’s the range that’s important rather than choosing one particular speed or trip.
At the heart of my original post was how a horse felt in its footing: would it prefer a slippery/deep surface or a firmer footing? It seems logical to me that, all else being equal, soundness etc., if a horse could talk it would choose the latter. If that’s illogical to you or to anyone else, there is nothing more I can offer here.
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