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”Did you actually read what I’d written?
With all due respect someone would have to book a fortnight off work to read what you’d written.
Anyway, moving on with people trashing erach other’s opinions – Dawn Run, lovely mare but OMG so over-rated.
Won one of the weakest Champion Hurdles ever and beat an old favourite of mine, Wayward Lad in the Gold cup and would have done neither without her 5lb mares allowance.
Been plenty of weak champion hurdles. We have still only ever seen one horse do the double. It was an amazing achievement and I think we will see a horse do 6 gold cups before we get another one to do the double.
Aren’t you forgetting a few things also. Her novice career? The French and Irish Champion Hurdles, the Aintree Hurdle??
The fact that she won the Gold cup on her 4 or 5th run?
I think she wasnt at her best when she won the Gold Cup and looking at her career in the whole, nice mare doesn’t really cover, not for me anyhow. Show me a mare with similar achievements
SHL
Shame she never got the chance to become a broodmare, though.
Twitter=@PGHenn
So don't run, just like the others always do
These days Dawn Runs big double would have been a Mares Hurdle and a Rynair.
Mind boggling how anyone can think the 4th day has added anything but another days takings.
Hadn’t forgotten anything of the rest of her career, and she was a likeable mare but bottom line for me is she beat Cima in receipt of 5lb by something like three quarters of a length and was getting 5lb off ther non stayer Wayward lad when beating him a length.
Compare and contrast that with Night Nurse who was a dual Champion Hurdle winner in a golden era for hurdling and was runner up to Little Owl in a Gold Cup, obviously at levels weights.
Night Nurse was different class.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps – Hurdlers)
182 Night Nurse
180 Istabraq, Monksfield
179 Persian War
178 Comedy of Errors, Le Sauvignon
177 Lanzarote, Limestone Lad
176 Bird’s Nest, Bula, Golden Cygnet
175 Baracouda, Gaye Brief, Salmon Spray, Sea PigeonHighest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps – Chasers)
212 Arkle
210 Flyingbolt
192p Sprinter Sacre
191 Kauto Star, Mill House
187 Desert Orchid
186 Dunkirk
184 Burrough Hill Lad, Moscow Flyer, Long Run
183 Denman, Master Oats
182 Azertyuiop, Best Mate, Captain Christy, Carvill’s Hill, Kicking King, See More Business, Well ChiefWeird, can’t see Dawn Run anywhere there? Still, Timeform ,what do they know?
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Yes, I realise what the implication is. The implication is that (a) I don’t give a [expletive] if an animal is in pain/distress
No,
What part of "indirectly" don’t you understand?
Connections have admitted Time For Rupert has had bad injuries. Why would a horse be off the track for long periods without problems? Any punter who’s studied TFR’s form would realise there must have been some major reason why the horse disappointed. You want the horse to lose for all the reasons you’ve given (and only those given reasons). Yet the main reason why TFR has done so badly is his physical problems. So it does not matter that your reasons are nothing to do with TFR’s "pain/distress" – it’s pain and distress is often what happens when it loses.The "implication" is you’ve allowed your reverse-snobbery, dislike of the trainer and supposed hype to blind yourself of the only thing that should matter. Welfare of the horse.
You are an owner and should know better! Your horses Outlaw Tom and The Village have had their own issues which affect/ed form. Why should Time For Rupert be any different for having worse problems?
I don’t know the reasons why Outlaw Tom has totally changed from one described in form books as "good attitude" to become a "lazy" so and so, "inconsistent" and "temperamental", a "poor jumper"… …But say Outlaw Tom had once been of high potential. Deteriorated because of a myriad of very serious physical problems and that he’s many times lost because of a reccurrence of those physical problems; often finishing distressed. And all of that very well publicised (everyone knew). So if you knew what Outlaw Tom can go through when the horse lost: How would you like it if some punter without any personal knowledge of the horse dismissed those ailments as lies, wished the horse to lose and found it "funny" when he does?
Value Is EverythingHighest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps – Hurdlers)
182 Night Nurse
180 Istabraq, Monksfield
179 Persian War
178 Comedy of Errors, Le Sauvignon
177 Lanzarote, Limestone Lad
176 Bird’s Nest, Bula, Golden Cygnet
175 Baracouda, Gaye Brief, Salmon Spray, Sea PigeonHighest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps – Chasers)
212 Arkle
210 Flyingbolt
192p Sprinter Sacre
191 Kauto Star, Mill House
187 Desert Orchid
186 Dunkirk
184 Burrough Hill Lad, Moscow Flyer, Long Run
183 Denman, Master Oats
182 Azertyuiop, Best Mate, Captain Christy, Carvill’s Hill, Kicking King, See More Business, Well ChiefWeird, can’t see Dawn Run anywhere there? Still, Timeform ,what do they know?
And neither are Big Bucks, Hardy Eustace, Hurricane Fly to name a just a few.
Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps – Hurdlers)
182 Night Nurse
180 Istabraq, Monksfield
179 Persian War
178 Comedy of Errors, Le Sauvignon
177 Lanzarote, Limestone Lad
176 Bird’s Nest, Bula, Golden Cygnet
175 Baracouda, Gaye Brief, Salmon Spray, Sea PigeonHighest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps – Chasers)
212 Arkle
210 Flyingbolt
192p Sprinter Sacre
191 Kauto Star, Mill House
187 Desert Orchid
186 Dunkirk
184 Burrough Hill Lad, Moscow Flyer, Long Run
183 Denman, Master Oats
182 Azertyuiop, Best Mate, Captain Christy, Carvill’s Hill, Kicking King, See More Business, Well ChiefWeird, can’t see Dawn Run anywhere there? Still, Timeform ,what do they know?
And neither are Big Bucks, Hardy Eustace, Hurricane Fly to name a just a few.
Big Buck’s should be alongside Bird’s Nest, Bula and Golden Cygnet on 176 in that list.
Value Is EverythingA very robust defence from you on War Command there Gingertipster.
The only thing with such dissection of a post is that it leads to a dissection of a dissection and I don’t think anyone here wants to be "hooped" reading through a sprawling mess. I could hardly bring myself to get there actually
I agree some horses in the form lines did place in group races but I don’t think they were good races in all cases. Just because it’s a group race doesn’t make it a good one, for me anyway.
One example would be Willie Haggas’s Saayerr, who won the Richmond, beating Cable Bay but he never won again, finishing second last in The Gimcrack next time. He then ran in The Free Handicap, finishing 4th to Shifting Power and the two horses who were immediately ahead of him, Mushir and Aeoleus weren’t any great shakes afterwards. Saayerr would then go off 2/1f for the group 3 Chipchase at Newcastle but finished only third, with a horse rated 13lbs inferior ahead of him in second. I think Saayerr is a good example of a horse who won a group 2 but is not truly group 2 class. It’s the same for other group races sometimes.
Cable Bay went on to finish second in a group 2 as you said, but it was a race run on soft ground at the fag end of the season and I don’t particularly trust the form.
Cable Bay went up 6 lbs for running second to War Command and had then gone down 9 lbs before being raised 4 lbs for being second to Here Comes When. There were a lot of tired old cuddies on show that day with poor efforts from jf Al Thakira and Joyeuse for example. The other jf on the day was Breton Rock, whose stable were going through their leanest month of the last twelve with a 7% strike rate in October.
It also has to be noted that Cable Bay has only won one race from eleven starts and that was a maiden. Yes he’s got some place form but beating him is hardly a unique feat.
I’ll finally touch on, and it is finally, Outstrip. He did win the Breeders Cup Juvenile and some people fancied him for Guineas glory on the strength of that. I don’t trust the American form on rock hard greyhound racing tracks.
Aiden O’Brien sent
George Vancouver
out to achieve the same feat twelve months earlier but when he came back to our shores he never won again. He was also a fancy for some in his Guineas year but, for whatever reason, the form didn’t translate.
Step back a further twelve months and Aiden O’Brien sent
Wrote
out to win the same Breeders Cup race and he too never won again returned to the British Isles. That is now three on the trot, if anyone likes to follow trends.
Outstrip was stone last in the 2000 Guineas and then, as you say he ran third to Kingman in The St James Palace before being last of four behind the same horse next time. It’s no secret that Kingman’s races were run farcically in the main and other horses went out of their normal running style to try to find a way to beat the favourite. I don’t think anyone would be wise to read those results literally when planning a bet and I don’t trust the form.
If we could have taken the form literally, I am sure Outstrip wouldn’t have been 10/1 when dropped to Group 2 company at Newmarket in September when he was narrowly the highest rated runner in the race. He was 8th that day behind Custom Cut and ran just behind our old sparring partners Cable Bay and Anjaal. The future form of that Group 2 shows 1 place and 11 unplaced efforts from 12 starts.
We are left with Outstrip running last and 8th in two bigger field races, and beaten around 3 lengths by Kingman, seemingly better form but in two farcically run small field races. I just don’t trust his form with Kingman.
Anyway that’s my take on it and it won’t matter one iota either way, as everyone has their own methods and theories. Whatever works for whoever, the best of luck to them. Time to move on.
What’s your fancy for
this
year’s 2000 Guineas Mark?
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Hadn’t forgotten anything of the rest of her career, and she was a likeable mare but bottom line for me is she beat Cima in receipt of 5lb by something like three quarters of a length and was getting 5lb off ther non stayer Wayward lad when beating him a length.
Compare and contrast that with Night Nurse who was a dual Champion Hurdle winner in a golden era for hurdling and was runner up to Little Owl in a Gold Cup, obviously at levels weights.
Night Nurse was different class.
I wrote a long reply then deleted it in error . Here it is in Brief.
THe bottom line, being one race is hardly the best way to judge any horse. I could say that the bottom line on Night Nurse was that he couldnt beat his own stable companion little owl to win a Gold cup and that horse was no greatest of the great. I could state that bottom line as being he didnt win a gold cup and i think he may have attempted more than once?? But that be stupid. I think as a 3 mile chaser, she probably had the beating of him.
You have also proved my argument by even comparing her to a horse with the highest rating hurdlers ever. If she is just a nice mare, why not pick another good horse to compare her with. If would like me using Arkle to diminish Kauto Star or Desert Orchid.
In addition, nobody has ever said she was the greatest 2 miler ever or the greatest gold cup winner ever. Hence a pretty easy way to explain the ratings you went to the trouble of digging up. You could argue she might have gotten up there but for her rather short chasing career.
At the end of the day, how many of champion hurdlers could win a gold cup. How many of them even went on to be top 3 mile chasers? There is reason we dont look at the winner of a champion hurdle and think, that will win a gold cup some day. For me anyhow, she was better than likable but each to their own.
SHL
Hadn’t forgotten anything of the rest of her career, and she was a likeable mare but bottom line for me is she beat Cima in receipt of 5lb by something like three quarters of a length and was getting 5lb off ther non stayer Wayward lad when beating him a length.
Compare and contrast that with Night Nurse who was a dual Champion Hurdle winner in a golden era for hurdling and was runner up to Little Owl in a Gold Cup, obviously at levels weights.
Night Nurse was different class.
I wrote a long reply then deleted it in error . Here it is again.
The bottom line, being one race is hardly the best way to judge any horse. I could say that the bottom line on Night Nurse was that he couldnt beat his own stable companion little owl to win a Gold cup and that horse was no greatest of the great. I could state that bottom line as being he didnt win a gold cup and i think he may have attempted more than once?? But that would be silly way to look at the horses career as a whole. I do think though that as a 3 mile chaser, she probably had the beating of him.
You have also proved my argument by even comparing her to a horse with the highest rating hurdlers ever. If she is just a "likeable" mare, why not pick another good horse to compare her with. If would like me using Arkle to diminish Kauto Star or Desert Orchid.
In addition, nobody has ever said she was the greatest 2 miler ever or the greatest gold cup winner ever. Hence a pretty easy way to explain the ratings you went to the trouble of digging up. You could argue she might have gotten up there but for her rather short chasing career but we can never be sure.
The argument about the weight concession is silly. As a mare, she was at a disadvantage in the same way that 3 y olds are clearly at a disadvantage to older horses and also require a weight concession. If this was an unfair advantage, mares would have a lot more championships races won wouldnt they?
At the end of the day, how many Champion hurdlers could win a gold cup. How many of them even went on to be top 3 mile chasers? There is a reason we dont look at the winner of a champion hurdle and think, that will win a gold cup some day. For me anyhow, she was better than likable but each to their own.
SHL
That was a brief reply?
As the list shows, any number of horses were better than Dawn Run over hurdles and her rateable form over fences wasn’t that high either.
She was a likeable mare, but she wasn’t one of the greats – even though she was talked about as if she was.
I am "The Horse Racing Punter" on Facebook
https://mobile.twitter.com/Ian_Davies_
https://www.facebook.com/ThePointtoPointNHandFlatracingpunter/
It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"That was a brief reply?
As the list shows, any number of horses were better than Dawn Run over hurdles and her rateable form over fences wasn’t that high either.
She was a likeable mare, but she wasn’t one of the greats – even though she was talked about as if she was.
I think i have proved you wrong….go to bed and think about it
SHL
1. On His Own
Ridiculously inconsistent but seems to get away with it without anyone objecting. His supporters claim he was robbed in the 2014 Gold Cup despite the horse instigating many of the problems in the closing stages.He proved hopeless at Aintree, his name reminds me of a dreadful dirge by Patti Labelle amd Michael McDonald, and he makes me wish Howard Johnson was still training
Fine effort at Leopardstown recently but glad he was beat and I usually am.
2. I haven`t enjoyed P.Nicholls making excellent use of good claimers to win big Saturday chases this season.( Emma Lavelle might agree on this one) Would love to see Ulck du Lin handicapped out of winning anything decent again.
That was a brief reply?
As the list shows, any number of horses were better than Dawn Run over hurdles and her rateable form over fences wasn’t that high either.
She was a likeable mare, but she wasn’t one of the greats – even though she was talked about as if she was.
I think i have proved you wrong….go to bed and think about it
Dawn Run had one year at Champion Hurdling, and one year for a crack at the Gold cup; if she’d spent longer at either she’d have reached a higher rating. But a lower rating is the price you pay for achieving the impossible. Mind you the day won at Aintree I think she was unbeatable, even Istabraq could not have followed that gallop
1. On His Own
Ridiculously inconsistent but seems to get away with it without anyone objecting. His supporters claim he was robbed in the 2014 Gold Cup despite the horse instigating many of the problems in the closing stages.He proved hopeless at Aintree, his name reminds me of a dreadful dirge by Patti Labelle amd Michael McDonald, and he makes me wish Howard Johnson was still training
Fine effort at Leopardstown recently but glad he was beat and I usually am.
I backed On His Own twice in The Grand National, he fell the first time and I backed him at 25/1 as soon as odds were available for the following year. Sent off 8/1 I was well happy with my voucher at 25/1 and I thought he travelled well for much of the race. He started to tire and come under pressure and I don’t think he stays the National trip at all, further evidence of which is him being pulled up in the 4 miler at Cheltenham in 2011. It was a tired fall in my opinion and he was already out of it when coming to grief at Valentines second time around.
I would agree that it’s highly unusual that such a horse would then go and nearly win a Gold Cup and a Lexus but I feel they were barking up the wrong tree, or in this case Aintree with On His Own.
The thing that does get my goat with him is that he can run behind Road To Riches in the J N Wines and get beaten more than seventy lengths and then come out and damn near beat the same horse in the Lexus next time. His effort at Punchestown following his Gold Cup run was also risible, beaten more than ninety lengths by Boston Bob.
I believe punters get short changed with these horses who run appallingly and more should be done to stop sending out horses clearly just entered in a race for the day out and the ubiquitous "blowing away of the cobwebs"
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
The thing that does get my goat with him is that he can run behind Road To Riches in the J N Wines and get beaten more than seventy lengths and then come out and damn near beat the same horse in the Lexus next time.
I believe punters get short changed with these horses who run appallingly and more should be done to stop sending out horses clearly just entered in a race for the day out and the ubiquitous "blowing away of the cobwebs"
His price of 11/1 6th fav in this race for a GC 2nd may have told you his chances. I also backed him in 2 Nationals and the GC although but mainly because of the Ruby factor (although injured for 2 of these
). I think he is just an inconsistent horse and not one to be trusted, so you back him at your peril. The horse has to start somewhere and now getting older, probably does need the run.
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