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1. Mill Reef in the Arc.
I know, crazy. I have since been rehabilitated. I wanted the great little pocket rocket beaten because I hated the idea of him succeeding where ( imo ) a even greater racehorse had failed a year earlier.It was all to do with the previous year’s wonder horse, Nijinsky. I think everyone who loved horseracing wanted to see Nijinsky win the Arc , retire undefeated and cement his legendary status. To be beaten a nostril hair by the French Derby winner, Sassafras, was a crying shame. Sassafras wasn’t in the same league as Nijinsky. If only Lester hadn’t thought he’d been riding Nijinsky ( oops, sorry he was !
) …
It was a defeat that was very hard to accept. ITV interrupted The Golden Shot in order to broadcast that year’s Arc. What an anticlimax – even dear old Bob Monkhouse was gutted when Nijinsky lost in the photo finish.2. Black Caviar ! Need I say more.
The Aussie heroine .Over-hyped, Over-rated and over here. Let’s be honest, Frankel would have destroyed her.Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
If you love AP Mike(Betlarge) fair enough, it’s my personal choice and any sarcastic references to other sportspeople are unbecoming of you.
For what it’s worth I think he is obviously very good without being the best current jockey. He has been fortunate to compete against a lot of, quite honestly, second rate riders. In the golden age of NH in the 60s and 70s he wouldn’t have been ‘champ’ as many times. But again that is my opinion and if yours differs I respect that.
Anything ridden by A P McCoy!! Can’t stand the way that commentators go overboard about the ‘greatest ride ever from the Champ’ when he’s won on a 1/5 shot that anyone could have won on! He is one of the reasons why my interest in jumps racing has waned.
I have to agree. AP’s had well over 4000 winners but none of them have carried my money!
I remember being incredibly tired of the hype surrounding Cecil/Abdullah’s
Tenby
before the 1993 Derby. I never thought he’d beaten anything of note but there seemed an absolute press campaign to talk about nothing else in the race.
On the day, this had driven his price into a bonkers 4-5f for the race which was probably the main reason I wanted to see him turned over! It was ironic that he finished mid-division behind the connections’ other runner Commander In Chief. That was the year that the ‘blue’ pair – Blue Judge and Blues Traveller – filled the places at 150-1 each.
Tenby pretty much ran to that reasonable form a few more times in top-class races as a 3yo without threatening to win, before proving nothing special at stud either. Commander In Chief went on to win the Irish Derby before being sent to stud in Japan where he performed modestly too.
Mike
I laid Tenby at evens to one of my louder punters who considered the horse the "second coming"
The guy invested £50 on the Cecil hotpot declaring that I was a mug and that he was buying money.
To this day the man insists that Tenby was nobbled just before Derby Day.
I think there was another Cecil horse that year called Armiger who seemed to be in everybody’s Ten To Follow but who didn’t win again after winning the Chester Vase and then getting turned over at odds on behind Hernando next time.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Anything ridden by A P McCoy!! Can’t stand the way that commentators go overboard about the ‘greatest ride ever from the Champ’ when he’s won on a 1/5 shot that anyone could have won on! He is one of the reasons why my interest in jumps racing has waned.
I have to agree. AP’s had well over 4000 winners but none of them have carried my money!
Just say that you’re right and AP isn’t as good as some people think…
Let’s get this straight. You two want a man to lose races – because of –
not
his own opinion of himself – but
someone else
‘s overblown opinion of him. How is that
AP’s fault
? Why would you want a man to be
unsuccessful
because of
some else
‘s opinion of him? AP could be
exactly
the same man as he is now, riding
exactly
the same way as he does now and you’d be
happy
to see him win – as long as
nobody thought he was any good
.
Strikes me you’re jealous of his success.
Value Is EverythingMy own selection for this category has to be
War Command
.
After his Coventry romp he was hailed as already good enough to win the average 2000 Guineas. He flopped next time in the Phoenix in Ireland but the handicappers, time gurus and fans of the horse all did their best to defend the performance.
His Conquerors in the Phoenix had their previous runs uprated to help explain War Command’s defeat and the thread here got heated.
Once apologies were made and the dust settled we all waited to see how he performed in the 2000 Guineas.
War Command made no impact on the day and two more defeats followed. The Coventry form yielded just two wins from two horses outside of War Command, from 78 subsequent attempts. Runner up that day, Parbold never won another race.
Phoenix second Big Time was beaten a total of more than 50 lengths on his next three starts, while Sudirman never won again in four attempts.
Some may call it petty to want to see a horse beaten but when you feel strongly about something and have your opinion rubbished, I think it is only human nature to wish to be proved correct.
Racing is a game where nobody is right all the time but when you stick your neck out and someone tries to chop it off, I think it warrants a wee "Get it right up you" to the TV screen in the privacy of your own home to release your emotions.
Thanks for the good crack. Time for me to move on. Be lucky.
Australia just because of Aiden O’Brien’s comments "Best I’ve ever trained". Was in an Irish pub when The Grey Gatsby turned him over. Cheering him on and when asked how much I had on replied "Nothing"
I remeber Paul Webber talking pre race about Time For Rupert and said today we find out if we turn right for Fakenham or left for Cheltenham. It got beat but he still turned left in March..should have made a right.
Anything ridden by A P McCoy!! Can’t stand the way that commentators go overboard about the ‘greatest ride ever from the Champ’ when he’s won on a 1/5 shot that anyone could have won on! He is one of the reasons why my interest in jumps racing has waned.
I have to agree. AP’s had well over 4000 winners but none of them have carried my money!
Just say that you’re right and AP isn’t as good as some people think…
Let’s get this straight. You two want a man to lose races – because of –
not
his own opinion of himself – but
someone else
‘s overblown opinion of him. How is that
AP’s fault
? Why would you want a man to be
unsuccessful
because of
some else
‘s opinion of him? AP could be
exactly
the same man as he is now, riding
exactly
the same way as he does now and you’d be
happy
to see him win – as long as
nobody thought he was any good
.
Strikes me you’re jealous of his success.
I am not knocking the man. I said the fella’s had 4000 winners but I never had one of them
My own selection for this category has to be
War Command
.
After his Coventry romp he was hailed as already good enough to win the average 2000 Guineas.
He flopped next time in the Phoenix in Ireland but the handicappers, time gurus and fans of the horse all did their best to defend the performance.
His Conquerors in the Phoenix had their previous runs uprated to help explain War Command’s defeat and the thread here got heated.
Once apologies were made and the dust settled we all waited to see how he performed in the 2000 Guineas.
After the Phoenix, the flames. Back at 7f War Command won the Group 2 Futurity in impressive style with a Timeform comment "every bit as good as his Coventry form". It was a race I seem to remember you castigated at the time, but who did he beat so impressively? Mustajeeb by an easy 3 lengths. What did Mustajeeb go on to do? Won the Amethyst (Group 3) against older horses impressively next time. Then 3rd in the Irish Guineas. Then won the Jersey Stakes at Royal Ascot. Then despite having to race wide split Bow Creek and Gordon Lord Byron in a Group 2. So a 3 lengths easy beating of Mustajeeb wasn’t as bad as you made out now was it?War Command made no impact on the day and two more defeats followed. The Coventry form yielded just two wins from two horses outside of War Command, from 78 subsequent attempts. Runner up that day, Parbold never won another race.
I believe some of Parbold’s form lines actually flatter War Command David, so don’t see why you’d rubbish the form by using him as an example. But will show how the form looks.In Parbold’s next race he was beaten just a neck (1/4 length) and 1 1/2 lengths in the Goodwood Champagne. On the "form" line you yourself ridicule… 6 – 1.75 = 4.25. So War Command comes out a 4 1/4 lengths better horse than Toormoore and 4 1/2 better than Outstrip. Toormore won the Group 1 National Stakes next time out by 2 3/4 lengths from…(more of that later). Toormore then won the Craven before losing his form…
What about Outstrip? Well, he won the Group 2 Doncaster Champagne next time out by 3 lengths from subsequent French Derby and Irish Champion Stakes winner The Grey Gatsby. Outstrip then finished 2 3/4 lengths behind War Command in the Group 1 Dewhurst on rain softened ground not ideal for War Command. But what about the Dewhurst form you ridicule?…
Outstrip next time out won the Grade 1 Breeders Cup Juvenile Turf! Wow, form of the Coventry must be poor then. Outstrip dissapointed in the Guineas before coming right back to his best to be placed 3rd, 2 1/4 and 1 length behind Irish and English Guineas winners Kingman and Night Of Thunder in the Group 1 St James’s Palace. So War Command beats Outstrip by 2 3/4 lengths and Kingman does it by 3 1/4 lengths. Night Of Thunder does it by just 1 length. And you say the form does not work out? War Command himself finished 1/2 a length further back in 4th in the St James’s, given a lot to do and finishing well. Then despite finishing last of 4, Outstrip ran to form a total of 3 lengths behind winner Kingman in the Sussex.
Dewhurst 2nd Cable Bay did not run for over 10 months, so was injured. Took time to gradually get back to full health but did so in a performance at least as good as in the Coventry when 1 length 2nd to Here Comes When in the Group 2 Challenge Stakes last time out.
The horse that finished 3 lengths behind War Command at Newmarket, Anjaal suffers from niggling injuries, but went on to finish a neck and a half length 3rd in the Group 2 Lennox to Es Que Love and Toormore.Phoenix second Big Time was beaten a total of more than 50 lengths on his next three starts, while Sudirman never won again in four attempts.
Some may call it petty to want to see a horse beaten but when you feel strongly about something and have your opinion rubbished, I think it is only human nature to wish to be proved correct. Nope, you weren’t "proved correct" David. Oh sorry, you were right, War Command did not win the 2000 Guineas. You’re acting as if War Command was odds-on to win the Guineas after the Coventry. He was 10/1. Well done for backing a 1/10 shot . When backing a horse at 10/1, you do not do so because you think it will win, you back it because you think it is value to win. War Command only had to make normal progress from the Coventry to win a Guineas, ie improving around 6 lbs, if that. He didn’t improve, he stayed the same. That’s the chance you take. War Command’s Timeform rating has not changed since June 2013, not got better, not got worse.Racing is a game where nobody is right all the time
but when you stick your neck out and someone tries to chop it off, I think it warrants a wee "Get it right up you" to the TV screen in the privacy of your own home to release your emotions.I didn’t try to "chop your neck off", just defended my opinion of the horse / my bet.
After your outburst of how crap War Command was, he went on to win the Futurity and Dewhurst! Futurity impressively by 3 lengths from one that goes on to be placed in a Guineas and wins at Royal Ascot. Dewhurst; the two year old race everyone wants to win.
You seem to have got an opinion and then looked for evidence that substantiates that opinion, dismissing everything that doesn’t.
Am disappointed you haven’t learnt that the distance a horse wins by matters in figuring out how good he is. It’s true, the rest of the Coventry field was worse than an average Coventry. But War Command didn’t just beat Parbold, he beat him by 6 lengths. ie Without War Command, Parbold would’ve been a poor Coventry winner… But – as Parbold’s (and any other of the first 5 home in the Coventry’s) subsequent form
proved
– there was plenty of room in that 6 length margin between War Command and Parbold to fit in plenty of really good horses.
The form of the Coventry has worked out every bit as well as I thought it was at the time. It’s just I was wrong that War Command did not make the normal improvement horses usually do from the Coventry to Guineas/three year old.
Value Is EverythingTry My Best in the 2,000 Guineas because he had recorded a shocking time in the Dewhurst and the Vincent O’Brien/Robert Sangster hype was OTT at the time.
Anything Godolphin buy because I think the Maktoums try to buy success and then delude themselves it is sport, while the media laud them as "shrewd" when it goes right while conveniently forgetting about all the flops
Camelot as a 4yo because the "sporting" decision to go for a 3yo Triple Crown campaign was simply to serve Frankel (that said I think Coolmore are a lot shrewder than Godolphin and I like Aidan O’Brien)
Sprinter Sacre on Saturday because I laid him
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"Big Bucks, because of all the hype; in reality the staying hurdle division is the 4th division of NH racing, for horses that (a) can’t jump, and (b) are too slow fro 2-mile hurdling. Can’t think of any of the horse he beat amounting too uch in the more competitive steeplechasing division. And he and Quevega dodged each other neatly for years.
Wow, absolutely savage dissection of that argument from GT. Great stuff.
Another one I’ve always rooted against is
Champion Court
, for a few reasons. For one thing, I don’t like how he seems to have taken on the moniker of "the gallant Champion Court" or "tough front-runner Champion Court". He has a pretty appalling win rate, often pulls himself up and swerves around like a dreidel under pressure.
Like with a few horses on this thread, most of my spite is aimed at the connections rather than the animal. It was terribly unfair when Martin Keighley jocked off regular rider Alain Cawley before Champion Court’s crack at the Ryanair Chase. It was not Cawley’s fault that the horse was perpetually 15lbs short of class in Grade 1 races. Likewise, it was hard to blame Cawley for the horse’s tendency to make a few mistakes.
It must have been particularly galling for Cawley to be replaced by Jason Maguire, who has a terrible strike-rate in steeplechases at Cheltenham, then Ian Popham. Popham isn’t the safest pair of hands, as his surgeon would attest.
"steeplechasing":3wzme1ob wrote:
In 2013 Webber reported that they’d found and removed a tumour in his head (I believe it was in his sinus). Lord knows how long it had been there, but I’m astounded by the number of trainers (and jockeys) who persevere with horses who are so obviously in distress.That’s interesting news (I wasn’t previously aware of it), but since there was always a different excuse from Paul Webber after one of his runs, I’m rather doubtful as to its veracity.
[quote="gingertipster"}
A horse is in pain, it bleeds, has mucus in its lungs, suffers heat exhaustion and Fivelongdays "always wanted to see Time For Rupert lose" again, finding it "funny".Did you actually read what I’d written? My point was that (A) he was hyped up as the New Big Thing in steeplechasing despite having nothing (journeymen jockeys/League Two trainer/form which didn’t stack up) to support that argument, (B) the people who hyped him up took massive offence at any suggestion that he was a Class Two animal at best, (C) said people who hyped him up made having a GL postcode/having been in a pony club a sign of their superiority and (D) his trainer came up with a different excuse every time he lost. Besides, if a horse did have these terrible problems, what was he doing running in big races?
So take back your implication that I delight in animals suffering, you insufferable arse.
Twitter=@PGHenn
So don't run, just like the others always do
A horse is in pain, it bleeds, has mucus in its lungs, suffers heat exhaustion and Fivelongdays "always wanted to see Time For Rupert lose" again, finding it "funny".
Did you actually read what I’d written? My point was that (A) he was hyped up as the New Big Thing in steeplechasing despite having nothing (journeymen jockeys/League Two trainer/form which didn’t stack up) to support that argument, (B) the people who hyped him up took massive offence at any suggestion that he was a Class Two animal at best, (C) said people who hyped him up made having a GL postcode/having been in a pony club a sign of their superiority and (D) his trainer came up with a different excuse every time he lost. Besides, if a horse did have these terrible problems, what was he doing running in big races?
So take back your implication that I delight in animals suffering, you insufferable [expletive].
You don’t even realise what the "implication" is fivefurlongdays.
Whether you like it or not, there are many physical reasons why a horse can run poorly or stop improving or not be able to perform to the same level as previously. Now, may be Webber hasn’t told the truth about all of Time For Rupert’s problems, may be he’s had a lot of problems or may be it is just the one major problem. Frankly, I don’t care if he was making some up or not. What I am damn sure of is TFR has had major problems of some type and whatever they may be have stopped him producing the form he was once capable of and/or could’ve been capable of. And that’s nothing to do with hype or what the trainers said, it’s all to do with FORM. I could go in to detail like I did with War Command but unlike David, you do not deserve it.
I do not care whether your reasons for wanting to see the horse get beat are (a, b, c, d) you can have an (e, f, g and h) it won’t make any difference. Fact is you put all your reverse-snobbery, dislike of hype and the trainer’s words – all trivial reasons before the one thing that is important, the horse’s welfare. The reason for TFR’s long losing run is his physical problems. In "wanting the horse to lose" you were indirectly wanting a horse’s physical problems to remain. What’s worse is you thought it "funny" when the horse lost/had these physical problems.
It is a shame the horse was not retired long ago, but can understand connections reluctance when there is any possibility of getting over his ailments and a return to form. It should be remembered that it is easier for big trainers like Nicholls and Henderson to retire horses, they have many potential stars every year. A horse of TFR’s potential comes through the hands of a trainer like Webber once in a life time. It is obvious he’s going to be protective of TFR.
Value Is Everything”Did you actually read what I’d written?
With all due respect someone would have to book a fortnight off work to read what you’d written.
Anyway, moving on with people trashing erach other’s opinions – Dawn Run, lovely mare but OMG so over-rated.
Won one of the weakest Champion Hurdles ever and beat an old favourite of mine, Wayward Lad in the Gold cup and would have done neither without her 5lb mares allowance.
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It's the "Millwall FC" of Point broadcasts: "No One Likes Us - We Don't Care"A horse is in pain, it bleeds, has mucus in its lungs, suffers heat exhaustion and Fivelongdays "always wanted to see Time For Rupert lose" again, finding it "funny".
Did you actually read what I’d written? My point was that (A) he was hyped up as the New Big Thing in steeplechasing despite having nothing (journeymen jockeys/League Two trainer/form which didn’t stack up) to support that argument, (B) the people who hyped him up took massive offence at any suggestion that he was a Class Two animal at best, (C) said people who hyped him up made having a GL postcode/having been in a pony club a sign of their superiority and (D) his trainer came up with a different excuse every time he lost. Besides, if a horse did have these terrible problems, what was he doing running in big races?
So take back your implication that I delight in animals suffering, you insufferable [expletive].
You don’t even realise what the "implication" is fivefurlongdays.
Whether you like it or not, there are many physical reasons why a horse can run poorly or stop improving or not be able to perform to the same level as previously. Now, may be Webber hasn’t told the truth about all of Time For Rupert’s problems, may be he’s had a lot of problems or may be it is just the one major problem. Frankly, I don’t care if he was making some up or not. What I am damn sure of is TFR has had major problems of some type and whatever they may be have stopped him producing the form he was once capable of and/or could’ve been capable of. And that’s nothing to do with hype or what the trainers said, it’s all to do with FORM. I could go in to detail like I did with War Command but unlike David, you do not deserve it.
I do not care whether your reasons for wanting to see the horse get beat are (a, b, c, d) you can have an (e, f, g and h) it won’t make any difference. Fact is you put all your reverse-snobbery, dislike of hype and the trainer’s words – all trivial reasons before the one thing that is important, the horse’s welfare. The reason for TFR’s long losing run is his physical problems. In "wanting the horse to lose" you were indirectly wanting a horse’s physical problems to remain. What’s worse is you thought it "funny" when the horse lost/had these physical problems.
It is a shame the horse was not retired long ago, but can understand connections reluctance when there is any possibility of getting over his ailments and a return to form. It should be remembered that it is easier for big trainers like Nicholls and Henderson to retire horses, they have many potential stars every year. A horse of TFR’s potential comes through the hands of a trainer like Webber once in a life time. It is obvious he’s going to be protective of TFR.
Yes, I realise what the implication is. The implication is that (a) I don’t give a **** if an animal is in pain/distress and (b) I don’t like racing in the approved manner. Heaven forbid that I have a non-proscribed opinion. Heaven ******* forbid that I don’t come from the right ******* background and I live in the wrong ******* county.
I’m unworthy, am I? Obviously, yes. I can’t write a treatise on some piece of **** novices handicap at Ludlow or some other benighted backwater on a Tuesday, I’ve never been a member of a ******* pony club and I’d rather, on balance, go homeless than live in Gloucestershire (or any part of the Cotswolds again) for that matter. So, yep, I am unworthy of an explanation as to why Time For Rupert was hyped up (was it because he finished second to Big Buck’s when someone had to? Was it winning two tuppeny-ha’penny novice chases? I guess I am not worthy to learn).
But the main thing is – you should owe me a massive ******* apology for what you’ve said, you pompous ****.
Either that, or just **** off and go back to ******* your ******* **** over Nigel Twiston-Davies and Alistair ******* Down, you ******* ****.
Twitter=@PGHenn
So don't run, just like the others always do
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