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Why are you so sure of that, empty wallet? It was a nothing race that Invasor won in Dubai. Bullish Luck was beaten even further at his right trip and on his own surface next time. He had never even attempted dirt before.<br>Invasor has beaten nothing on turf, and hasn’t been asked to. My guess is that he couldn’t anyway.<br>Turf and dirt racing are so different from each other, but more turf horses can make a fist of things on dirt than dirt horses on turf. In fact, name one horse since Secretariat who was nearly equally good on both.<br>But very few horses outside America race on dirt. It is just a deferential (to America) convention that we acclaim the best dirt horse as the best in the world.
(Edited by Zorro at 12:57 pm on May 3, 2007)
Quote: from Zorro on 12:53 pm on May 3, 2007[br]In fact, name one horse since Secretariat who was nearly equally good on both.<br>
Dubai Millennium perhaps ;)
Zorro
My handicapping techniques tell me he is the best horse in the World so far in 2007 as he was in 2006, if your method says different, then fine
<br>Whether he’ll be the best in the world by year end i’m not sure, i actually think one may pass him this year and it will be a turf horse
<br>BTW, 2nd best performance in world (2007) according to me, Admire Moon
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(Edited by empty wallet at 2:22 pm on May 3, 2007)
Also Zorro, although i’ve no stats, but from my observations i think you may find it’s turf to dirters that struggle and not the other way, Bullish Luck being one example
(Edited by empty wallet at 2:46 pm on May 3, 2007)
In fact, name one horse since Secretariat who was nearly equally good on both.
I thought you were an Electrocutionist fan, Zorro?<br>
Lava Man is another who equally as good on Dirt and Turf
Boboman another, do i need to keep searching Zorro?
<br>Breeding, action, running style, ability to handle kickback decides transition between the different surfaces, much the same as a horse handling firm and soft on turf
(Edited by empty wallet at 2:58 pm on May 3, 2007)
Quote: from empty wallet on 2:50 pm on May 3, 2007[br]
<br>Breeding, action, running style, ability to handle kickback decides transition between the different surfaces, much the same as a horse handling firm and soft on turf
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<br>In fact, why not ask Chief racing Correspondent James Wiloughby to do an article about the above to help others understand this, he does possess good knowledge in this area and it would make a decent article imo
(Edited by empty wallet at 3:08 pm on May 3, 2007)
James is fairly satisfied with the idea that dirt horses are the best I think. I’m the one who’s not. Re turf to dirt at the highest level: Giant’s Causeway, Hamdan’s Arc second who ran behind Tiznow (began with an S but mind’s gone blank) Johannesberg, Swain, right back to Paul Cole’s second to Unbridled in 1990 Breeders’ Cup. Could such as Tiznow, Invasor etc. win the Arc? I doubt it.<br> But because they never race on turf we never know, and never will now because dirt’s on its way out.<br>I don’t do figures. (Too lazy. Too stupid). But can’t see how figures would be relevant anyway as the dirt runners seldom crossover.<br>Two very poor turf horses were Cigar and Mineshaft, but I wouldn’t adduce either as evidence.:)
Zorro
Why would a top Dirt horse want to try turf, the money was on the Dirt,(now Polytrack) thats why the turf horse you mention have a crack at top Dirt races.
Thats why Ballydolye tried GW ( enhance his stud value) in fact they should try him again, but at a mile, he was still in the mix until his stamina gave out
You also need to understand that a lot of horses suffer with bleeding etc and the use of drugs like Lasix allows them to compete in the US, whereas over here they’d finish well beaten
<br>The horse beginning with S was Storming Home and although i can’t remember, i bet ran on Lasix to help him, the same with Mineshaft and many others that have been well stuffed over here, but perform over there
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(Edited by empty wallet at 3:54 pm on May 3, 2007)
The horse with S was Sakhee. Storming Home’s US wins were all gained on turf. Incidentally as a bit of useless trivia, Storming Home was the first horse to win a G1 race when fitted with cheekpieces.
Good memory DJ,forgotten about Sahkee and an interesting bit of trivia
Zorro,
ratings are transferable, but the rating awarded on one surface may not be repeated on another, due to what i stated above breeding,action, etc, exactly the same as a rating awarded on fast turf ground does not hold up when the horse encounters soft
<br>This is why understanding the why, what, where reasons for the rating is so important rather saying Deep Impact is 128 and best rated so he will beat all the 126 horses
Thankyou for telling me what I need to understand, empty. But I don’t think you have taken my point.
Maybe i’m just too stupid to understand point your trying to make and maybe your trying to be sarcastic in that last post
I think your trying to say Invasor shouldn’t rated as best horse in World because he races on Dirt, when majority of races around World are on turf
If so, imo you’d be wrong
I think the point that Zorro was making is that in effect ratings for turf and dirt are somewhat arbitrary because the 2 entities don’t cross over.
For example, you know whether your ratings for maidens are too high or low when the horses start running against each other in handicaps. There is little crossover of dirt horses taking on the best turf horses because one or the other will be allowing their opponent optimum conditions.
David
<br>Right, you can apply the same logic to Japanese horses who never meet our top European horses, does this stop up rating Deep Impact 127 and Dylan Thomas 124
No, does it feck
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(Edited by empty wallet at 9:59 pm on May 3, 2007)
Empty
I’m happy to debate with you if you lose the attitude. I agree the same logic applies, and with it comes the same problems that you cannot really be sure whether your levels are right until the horses meet each other on and formlines can be established.
You only need to look at the problems with British and Irish hurdlers to see the problems that occur when races are handicapped at different levels and when using different weight for age scales. Clearly Britain and Ireland have different ideas as to how fast at 120 hurdler can run.<br>
(Edited by davidjohnson at 10:41 pm on May 3, 2007)
Sorry David, it wasn’t meant as it reads m8
<br>Thats all crossing over does, it gives confirmation, it does not mean you awarded the wrong rating in the first place
<br>I can understand there would be problems if using different levels, WFA’s, but if your compiling, you can use your own levels and WFA scale
In fact, a system like that probably favours the do it yourself handicapper
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(Edited by empty wallet at 11:18 pm on May 3, 2007)
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