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The master of Warren Place, my hero and favourite trainer ever since I grew up and got interested in the early 1980’s….do you think he still has what it takes to mix it at the top?
I know he suffered barren seasons from 2000 up to 2005 in reality which were not helped by health problems, family deaths, deaths of long term owner breeders etc.. but I really think and hope that he is now back at a competitive level – 100 horses in training this season. In fact if AOB had been a bit more generous this season then he would have had a couple of Group1’s and at least one Group 2 under his belt.
I know he will never scale the heights achieved previously again but I think everyone would wish him to back at the top.
Yay or nay?
It’s strange how our childhood memories stay with us. When I first started getting into racing Lester was still riding for Henry, then Steve Cauthen came along and I remember the likes of Sanquirico, Diminuendo, Oh So Sharp, Reference Point, Slip Anchor – none of whom I backed. I always seemed to back Stoute’s horses against Henry’s back then. Always preferred Swinburn over Cauthen… ok I was young and didn’t know any better.
Racing for me was all about Henry winning a 2YO race at Newmarket and being interviewed by Brough Scott afterwards. Cecil would always be brushing his long hair away from his face, stooping down and answering questions in that familar way of his: answering a question with a question:
"He did it rather well, didn’t he?"
Asking has he still got it to a 21yo who never saw Cecil when he "had it" I’d have to say nay… how many trainers would of messed up Twice Over quite so spectacularly? How many good horses seem to routinely get beat.
Just my opinion, I’m not a fan
The simple answer is no.
Henry Cecil doesn’t have the backing, the firepower, or the same quality of stable jockey – and arguably, anything like the same level of motivation he once had (which is understandable) to make an impact these days.
I followed him religiously through the 80s when his stable was at its mightiest. A fantastic trainer who has to be considered among the all time greats.
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He has been champion trainer ten times, saddled 33 Classic winners and 70 Royal Ascot winners in 34 years as a trainer so his ability speaks for itself. He is one of the all time greats and is a likeable colourful character and remains hugely popular.
At 65 the glory days are not going to come back but if he gets a top class horse imo he is still as good as anyone.
Its all about the ammunition put Henry in charge at Coolmore and he’d reel off group 1 after group 1, he knows what he’s doing alright.
However, its O’Brien’s world of racing at the moment no one else is getting a look in. Its probably not great for the sport (it makes it dull and uncompetitive) but thats the way it is and you have to admire and give Magnier and co. an enormous amount of credit.
how many trainers would of messed up Twice Over quite so spectacularly?
In what way has he "messed up" that horse?
how many trainers would of messed up Twice Over quite so spectacularly?
In what way has he "messed up" that horse?
Have to admit I wondered that.
how many trainers would of messed up Twice Over quite so spectacularly?
In what way has he "messed up" that horse?
Have to admit I wondered that.
Me too!
The horse was wrong when he was third in the Dante, but the winner and second have not done too badly since have they!
Dropping him back to a mile was probably not the right idea but he still had some bloody good horses behind him even that day and to be 3rd to HTN and Ravens Pass was hardly bad form. He subsequently nicely won a VERY valuable G2 in France and I think will be a leading player next season at 10f.
I still think that Henry is right up there with the best of them, the main problem being that he is too reliant on Khaled Abdulla for his firepower nowadays. He also could benefit from a better jockey. Much as I like Ted Durcan, I think that other jockeys would have won on Phoenix Tower in the Eclipse, Multidimensional in the Hardwicke and possibly Passage of Time in the Nassau (a better test of stamina would have benefitted her – even allowing for the Lush Lashes situation). That would have been 3 big races in the bag.
If, as I believe he has, he introduces some nice 2 year olds before the end of the season then next season may see the resurgence continue!
He will never reach the dizzy heights of the 80 and 90s due to a combination of ill health, marital and personal problems and the deaths of leading owner breeders like Lord Howard de Walden and Jim Joel.
Nonetheless he remains popular with racegoers and it was good to see him return to win a French Group 1 with Passage of Time and an Oaks with Light Shift after people wrote him off.
The Niarchos family and K Abdulla stayed loyal, he is dependant on them for quality horses, and has very useful types in Phoenix Tower, Tranquil Tiger and Passage of Time.
He will never compete consistently against Ballydoyle but who can? Only Godolphin and they appear to have given up for a while.
Cecil has remained loyal to Ted Durcan who is OK but not of the calibre of stable jocks of the past. He has also remarried so is probably happy with his lot.
Can’t understand the criticism of his handling of Twice Over. One time prominent in the Derby betting it was never going to stay and recently won a French G2 over shorter. What else was he to do?Im not entirely sure whether his judgement of what runs where is quite what it was and his charges are more inconsistent than I recall (Multidimensional being a good example)
Perhaps thats harsh, but given the health problems he has been battling, its a wonder he is training at all
The Cecil Cauthen combination was the greatest ever
I have always liked cecil,but he could also ruin a horse, i lost count of the number of very good 2yr horses he trained through out the 80’s and 90’s .Who never seem to train on at 3.It seemed every winter fav for the derby and oaks was trained by cecil.
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I have always liked cecil,but he could also ruin a horse, i lost count of the number of very good 2yr horses he trained through out the 80’s and 90’s .Who never seem to train on at 3.It seemed every winter fav for the derby and oaks was trained by cecil.
There’s truth in your comment as fact, but none as criticism. One of the reasons for his success was his ability to spot the age a particular horse was likely to be at its peak, and to train it with that aim in view. His two year old champions were trained to the mark at two, and it’s hardly his fault if (as with the majority of two year old champions) their generation usually caught up with them big time at three. Nor was a trend with his two year olds alone – c.f. Arazi or Celtic Swing.
Nor is it his fault if mug ante-post punters piled on to unsuitable animals over the winter, for races anything up to nine months in advance!
Just look at the number of lightly raced or unraced two year olds he trained, who developed into classic contenders or even champions at three – the man knew (and still knows) what he’s doing!
I just had a quick flick through Steve Taplin’s 2YOs of 2008 to guage the quality of Cecil’s current crop of juveniles and there are some beautifully-bred horses there yet to race. Ok, so he’s not got some of his old owners, but there surely ought to be some nice winners from these…
An Oasis Dream half sister to Camacho, named Bouvardia.
A Pivotal half-sister to Multidimensional named Consciousness.
A fully brother to Passage Of Time named Father Time
An Elusive Quality half sister to dual Grade 1 placed First Defence, called Honest Quality.
An Empire Maker filly out of multiple group 1 winner Heat Haze named Rare Virtue.
A Storm Cat colt out of Coup De Genie, which makes him a full-brother to Denebola, named Tiantai.
A full sister to Beat Hollow named Wemyss Bay
An unnamed Storm Cat half-brother to Admiralofthefleet.I just had a quick flick through Steve Taplin’s 2YOs of 2008 to guage the quality of Cecil’s current crop of juveniles and there are some beautifully-bred horses there yet to race. Ok, so he’s not got some of his old owners, but there surely ought to be some nice winners from these…
An Oasis Dream half sister to Camacho, named Bouvardia.
A Pivotal half-sister to Multidimensional named Consciousness.
A fully brother to Passage Of Time named Father Time
An Elusive Quality half sister to dual Grade 1 placed First Defence, called Honest Quality.
An Empire Maker filly out of multiple group 1 winner Heat Haze named Rare Virtue.
A Storm Cat colt out of Coup De Genie, which makes him a full-brother to Denebola, named Tiantai.
A full sister to Beat Hollow named Wemyss Bay
An unnamed Storm Cat half-brother to Admiralofthefleet.[/b]
[b]Indeed, Honest Quality has already won 2 out of 3, last time out a listed contest and will be upped in class next time out. Judging from his website, he has high hopes for Tiantai out of the ones you mentioned and others that are due out later this week, namely On Our Way, Wingwalker and Bouvardia are well regaded. He always used to have ‘talking horses’ granted that didnt live up to the hype but then again so has each and every trainer….I believe Washington Irving was regrded as one of AOB’s best and has still to win a race?
Fame and a place at the top comes and goes with trainers. I doubt if HC does much different these days and for sure he retains his ability to thefull. What he doesn’t have is the ammo but that could change with one or two decent young horses turning out to be classic horses.
In many cases a hore or two can have the big guns throwing money at you and spent wisely you are back on top like you never stopped.
Henry Cecil has done it all, worn the T-shirt and thrown it away.
Always be a top trainer in my eyes.
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