- This topic has 7 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 17 years, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
Not really a Cheltenham 2009 thread, more a history quiz question, but if mods disagree, then please move it accordingly.
Exchanging emails with Paul Jones (author of the Weatherbys Guide), I wondered if his research could tell us the name of the last Gold Cup winner NOT to have made his seasonal debut before Jan 1st. Obviously the question relates to Denman this time round.
We don’t have a definitive answer, but so far as I can tell, every winner since 1976 has run before the New Year. That’s based on my collection of Chasers and Hurdlers, which only started publication that year.
Whether it’s relevant to his chances I’m not sure, but it does suggest that a restricted preparation isn’t ideal. I certainly don’t know how many horses with a similar profile have been beaten in the race, which would be a better indicator still.
Anyway, can anyone here offer up the name of a Gold Cup winner that didn’t run before Jan 1st ?
AP
The question should probably how many have tried Alan. I’m pretty sure you’ll be going back some way but then there can’t be that many who come into the Gold Cup off a post-January seasonal debut.
Nortons Coin, as current champion didn’t run again untill the following calender year in his failed attempt to win it for a second time Irish (he fell).
They must have decided a more strenous build up would be required for the next renewal as they famously even ran him on the flat at Ascot.
As for the original question. Sorry, not a clue.
Lee
Pretty sure I read somewhere that no Gold Cup winner has debuted as late in the season as Denman, so that’s a big obstacle for him to overcome. While these stats are there to be eventually overturned, I am not a fan of taking them on.
Pretty sure I read somewhere that no Gold Cup winner has debuted as late in the season as Denman, so that’s a big obstacle for him to overcome. While these stats are there to be eventually overturned, I am not a fan of taking them on.
This was my understanding too. Add to that the stat going against Kauto Star (no GC winner has ever regained their crown after losing it) and it doesn’t look good for the top two in the market!
A lot of the "stronger" stats have been overturned in the last few years though:
No 5-yr-old etc etc in the Champion Hurdle – Katchit
No chaser regained the Champion Chase – Moscow Flyer in 2004
No hurdler regained the Stayers Hurdle – Inglis Drever in 2006
No 9-yr-old in the Stayers Hurdle – Inglis Drever in 2008The late debut is relevant however as it would imply (as in Denman’s case) that the horse is returning from injury which is a far more pertinent issue. I personally don’t believe that he will return as the same horse and think he is worth taking on in the market, preferably before the Aon Chase
Sorry for not being able to offer up an answer to the original question.
I think we might be safe in saying it’s a coincidental stat and has got really nothing to do with PN’s ability as a trainer or the ability of his two stars.
I have severe doubts if any winner in the history of race started so late.
These type of things are always spoken about somewhere in the history ot trivia of a race when they happen.For sure some have an failed but I sincerely doubt if any of them were in the class of the PN duo.
I suggest we should be Master Minded about it and throw these two stats out the window.
A lot of the "stronger" stats have been overturned in the last few years though:
No 5-yr-old etc etc in the Champion Hurdle – Katchit
No chaser regained the Champion Chase – Moscow Flyer in 2004
No hurdler regained the Stayers Hurdle – Inglis Drever in 2006
No 9-yr-old in the Stayers Hurdle – Inglis Drever in 2008The late debut is relevant however as it would imply (as in Denman’s case) that the horse is returning from injury which is a far more pertinent issue. I personally don’t believe that he will return as the same horse and think he is worth taking on in the market, preferably before the Aon Chase
Sorry for not being able to offer up an answer to the original question.
Of course, none of those stats were that ironclad in the first palce:
Champion Hurdle: no less than eleven winners were aged five.
Champion Chase: Royal Relief regained the title before Moscow Flyer.
Stayers Hurdle: Crimson Embers regained the title and was also a nine year old while Galmoy, Gaye Chance and Brown Lad were all nine year olds when they won (Galmoy for the 2nd time) since 1972.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.