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Surely the question should be when has a non-Gigginstown Mullins horse been put in a race to the detriment of a Gigginstown Mullins horse in he same race? Answer Vautour v Valseur Lido in the Ryanair Chase (O’Leary’s own sponsored race which he has never won). This may not be to do with the split but it certainly won’t have helped the relationship.
I still ask the question which no one has given the answer to… When has an o Leary horse trained by Mullins been put in a certain race to give a different Mullins horse a better chance of winning? Any examples? The only example given so far is vautour v don poli and I don’t think that was by design I think that was more a result of vautour trying to avoid djakadam so ruby wouldn’t have to choose between them. Any actual examples?
So Mullins and Ruby come to a decision for their own benefit – going against the owners wishes – why do you not see that as significant, thewexfordman?
Value Is EverythingO’Leary allowed Valseur Lido to run in a Grade 2 at Sandown on the last day of the season where as he’d have had a decent chance waiting for a Grade 1. Sir Des Champs ran in the Bet365 after a bad experience only three weeks previously at the Chair/Grand National; along with Measureofmydreams who’d fallen in the Scottish National.
It seems more than any other owner, in those last few weeks of the season Mr O’Leary tried his best to give Mr Mullins a British trainers title… but according to some he’s a selfish b…….
Value Is EverythingI still ask the question which no one has given the answer to… When has an o Leary horse trained by Mullins been put in a certain race to give a different Mullins horse a better chance of winning? Any examples? The only example given so far is vautour v don poli and I don’t think that was by design I think that was more a result of vautour trying to avoid djakadam so ruby wouldn’t have to choose between them. Any actual examples?
So Mullins and Ruby come to a decision for their own benefit – going against the owners wishes – why do you not see that as significant, thewexfordman?
What owners wishes did they go against? Surely one owner can’t dictate where another owners horses run?
Going back to the fees thing …..
In business do you not get bulk discount if you buy more from a supplier?Hence was it not normal for O’Leary to try to negotiate a discount for his training fees?
Personally I don’t care for either of them and like the Cumani Sheikh Obaid situation I don’t think we will ever hear the FULL truth of what happened.
Going back to the fees thing …..
In business do you not get bulk discount if you buy more from a supplier?Hence was it not normal for O’Leary to try to negotiate a discount for his training fees?
Personally I don’t care for either of them and like the Cumani Sheikh Obaid situation I don’t think we will ever hear the FULL truth of what happened.
Who said that he wasn’t already receiving a bulk discount?
I still ask the question which no one has given the answer to… When has an o Leary horse trained by Mullins been put in a certain race to give a different Mullins horse a better chance of winning? Any examples? The only example given so far is vautour v don poli and I don’t think that was by design I think that was more a result of vautour trying to avoid djakadam so ruby wouldn’t have to choose between them. Any actual examples?
So Mullins and Ruby come to a decision for their own benefit – going against the owners wishes – why do you not see that as significant, thewexfordman?
Vautour is not a Gigginstown horse GT. If anything this was of benefit to Gigginstown as it gave their Gold Cup hopes, Don Cossack and the Mullins trained Don Poli, a much greater chance in the biggest race of the year.
To be honest I have never understood the moaning about Mullins, not the owners, deciding where the horses run. Firstly, why that may be the case with some horses, it almost certainly was not with the Gigginstown horses. Secondly, if an owner is unhappy with this, there’s a very simple solution to the problem – owner decides or horses go elsewhere. Mullins is doing nothing wrong imo.
O’Leary allowed Valseur Lido to run in a Grade 2 at Sandown on the last day of the season where as he’d have had a decent chance waiting for a Grade 1. Sir Des Champs ran in the Bet365 after a bad experience only three weeks previously at the Chair/Grand National; along with Measureofmydreams who’d fallen in the Scottish National.
It seems more than any other owner, in those last few weeks of the season Mr O’Leary tried his best to give Mr Mullins a British trainers title… but according to some he’s a selfish b…….
Agreed. O’Leary was a big support to Mullins in the dying weeks of the season. (I’m unsure but was the owner’s title in the bag for Gigginstown after the National or was it a close run thing?). The fact O’Leary gave him such support suggests that the reason for the split may have indeed been the fees, or something that has happened since then.
More details today in the Irish Independent as to who has gone where:
GE gets: Apple’s Jade, Don Poli, Outlander, Blow by Blow, Lucky Pass, A Toi Phil, Roi des Francs, Potters Point, Stone Hard, Monbeg Rose, Sutton Manor, Berry des Aulmes, Barra, Three Swallowsnick, Dinaria des Obeaux, Icario & Empire of Dirt.
HdB gets: Valseur Lido, Devil’s Bride and Petit Mouchoir, plus ‘others’.
MM gets: Master of Verse, Nampour, Admiral Chief, Mozoltov, Milsean, Bello Conti, Wishmoor, plus ‘others’
JO’B has: Bel Sas, Arkwist plus ‘others’
NM has: Measureofmydreams.Looking at this, I would say a) there is a clear pecking order; b) GE has been given the ammunition to be competitive in the Irish trainer’s championship but also most of the obvious and potential Cheltenham championship contenders; and c) that MM has an interesting mix of older horses (to plot with and try to rekindle?) and young promising ones.
I’m also going to watch with interest how HdB gets on with Valseur Lido and how he/ Giggi campaign him – 2.5m or 3? Continue banging his head against the Ricci star chasers or chart a Sizing Europe type path by taking in the Irish G2s? Last season, by his previous high standards, was a disaster but his season could have been oh so different if Vautour hadn’t turned up in the Ryanair and Ruby hadn’t fallen off him in the Irish Gold Cup.
Meanwhile, back in the speculation zone: RR added his two-pennyworth, reported via the RP, whilst Kim Bailey had this to say on his blog:
Was it really all about Willie Mullins raising his training fees? I wonder.. Whatever, fees do have to go up and apparently Willie has not raised his for 10 years.. Cost have esculated since then.. My costs alone have risen by 12% from this time last year, so what it would be would it be over the last 10 years? Frightening thought.Rich going on about his ‘newbies’ got me thinking that Giggi might not only have been thinking about results and the obvious future collisions but also about how horses like Blow by Blow, Lucky Pass & Wishmoor might fare @ Closutton against the next round of Ricci recruits.
Those allocations also show that noel Meade’s days as a gigginstown trainer are almost over. To get only one out of 60 and a poor enough one at that is fairly telling.
Milsean with mouse morris is interesting a horse with loads of potential.
Apples jade is the only superstar among them really and the likes of outlander, roi de Frances, a toi Phil, stone hard etc will just become handicap plot jobs instead of reaching their best in graded racesNo matter how you look at it, you have to say that Ricci is the better race planer anyway. You see so many big races with Gigginstown – just like McManus – having 3, 4 or even more runners. How many times do you see more than 2 Ricci horses in the same race?
Ricci is simply more selective at planning the horses’ targets and no one is to blame for Vautour’s late RyanAir switch. A horse ideally suited by Cheltenham’s 2m5f and getting caught that late in the KG was switched to the right race.
Well done to Ruby, Mullins and the rest and Don Cossack’s task the next day was also made easier….I still ask the question which no one has given the answer to… When has an o Leary horse trained by Mullins been put in a certain race to give a different Mullins horse a better chance of winning? Any examples? The only example given so far is vautour v don poli and I don’t think that was by design I think that was more a result of vautour trying to avoid djakadam so ruby wouldn’t have to choose between them. Any actual examples?
So Mullins and Ruby come to a decision for their own benefit – going against the owners wishes – why do you not see that as significant, thewexfordman?
Vautour is not a Gigginstown horse GT. If anything this was of benefit to Gigginstown as it gave their Gold Cup hopes, Don Cossack and the Mullins trained Don Poli, a much greater chance in the biggest race of the year.
To be honest I have never understood the moaning about Mullins, not the owners, deciding where the horses run. Firstly, why that may be the case with some horses, it almost certainly was not with the Gigginstown horses. Secondly, if an owner is unhappy with this, there’s a very simple solution to the problem – owner decides or horses go elsewhere. Mullins is doing nothing wrong imo.
The point I am making THM is that Mullins is proven to go against an owner’s wishes. Of course Vautour is Ricci’s, but he is an owner. It was Ricci’s turn in the Gold Cup. As Mullins already has the last two Champion Hurdle winners Faugheen and Annie Power – the likelihood is it would’ve been O’Leary’s turn this season. Apple’s Jade would been moved to a lesser target, Mullins also commented about the horse:
“It is difficult for five-year-olds – I don’t think it’s ever been done for a mare of that age to win a Champion Hurdle. Is she more of a World Hurdle horse? I don’t make big plans for horses of that age.”
Suspect there is (was) now a plan – especially as Mullins does not have another World Hurdle candidate – Suspect O’Leary has been told Apple’s Jade will be aimed at the World Hurdle.
It’s not as easy as just saying owners can insist on a target. If an owner goes against a top trainer the horse can easily get a supposed “little problem”, preventing it from running in that race.
Value Is EverythingWhilst catching up on the snippet from the ML on C4’s Twitter feed re WPM/Giggi, some interesting stats came across the screen:
WPM Giggi winners – 158; strike rate – 33%. So, the numbers per se are good. But then, a few seconds later (as GC was talking about Grade 1’s as being ‘the currency that these players deal in’), this came across the screen: WPM Grade 1 Giggi winners – 16 (so, roughly 10% of his Giggi winners), of which 11 were @ Punchestown and 4 @ Cheltenham.
Thinking ‘results’ & their importance to Giggi, I then went to WPM’s website and his Cheltenham winners:
48 in total so far, but 12 of those (25%) are for RR, with all bar one of those (Limini) being in the championship races. Compare that to the WPM Giggi Cheltenham record, remembering that this is a fair comparison since they & RR started in the yard at around about the same time. Giggi’s 4 WPM Cheltenham winners (< 5% of the WPM total) are the 2 double winners, Sir Des Champs & Don Poli, both of whom won the Martin Pipe, and who then won the Jewson (now the JLT) and the RSA respectively. I think that comparison between RR & Giggi is quite telling, especially when combined with the uplift in fees. Given WPM’s recent Cheltenham record, I can see MO’L thinking he’d have seen rather more visits to the hallowed circle at Prestbury Park with WPM than he’s actually had (and in more of the championship races), and so baulking at the uplift in fees (which, after all, is small change to him).Then, add in the details of particular, already established, horses – specifically Valseur Lido in the Ryanair (I still think he’s important in this) & Apple’s Jade’s future – and I think it is possible to surmise why these horses were moved. Ginge is right: from what WPM said, AJ looks to have been ear-marked for the ‘Annie path’ when Quevega was on the scene (remember, she too went to the World Hurdle, because WPM didn’t want her beating Quevega & messing up the perfect 6 …). WPM doesn’t usually have an obvious WH horse; it’s the slot he fills, if he fills it, with those he doesn’t want running elsewhere – but that doesn’t mean the race is right for that horse, and the plan can backfire. IMO Annie didn’t really stay that distance, and she ran into a very good horse on the day in More Of That. The risk for AJ in going the WH route is that Thistlecrack doesn’t take to fences and reverts back to hurdles.
Don’t get me wrong: I love the games and second guessing with WPM, & I am no fan of the Ryanair way of doing business, but if I owned these horses I’m not so sure I’d put up with this kind of shenanigans either, and I think I would want a better Cheltenham return too.
pose that makes a lot of sense. O’Leary believing less than a week beforehand that he has a massive chance of eventually winning his own race only f
Sandra did reasonably well actually . Irish Grand National on first time of asking with Thunder and Roses. I am not sure many could get Sub Lieutenant running as well as she did. Fruastrating enough horse. Lt Colonel was Dessie’s last Group 1 win days before he died. He won another Group 1 for Sandra at Leoppy during the Christmas beating a decent horse in Jetson. Things went a bit pershaped performance wise against the real big boys in the Spring and missed a bit of 2015/2016.
In Ireland, Hughes was 15 wins for 147 runs in 2014/2015 (only took over in November 2014, officially). For Gigginstown, she won 8 out of roughly 40 runs for Gigginstown horses. 3 runs in UK , no wins
In 2015/2016, her first full season (including the off season preparations) she won 13 out of 143 races in Ireland. Only 2 out of 35 were for Gigginstown and most of them were horses from the year before.
With Regard to Mouse, his record in record was not entirely a whole lot different from 2011-2012 onwards, and he had the decent First Lieutenant .
http://www.racingpost.com/horses/trainer_home.sd?trainer_id=3891#bottomTrainerTabs=trainer_horses
Excellent piece from Tony Keenan on geegeez
http://www.geegeez.co.uk/the-gigginstown-mullins-split-reading-between-the-numbers/
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