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I am a bit bemused by the general state of ignorance about horses’ ability to go three miles. The debates on Master Minded and Oscar Whisky spring to mind.
Some points to clarify:
1. Surely it would not be that difficult to let a horse gallop three miles as part of its training, and see if it runs out of puff. I can understand why you might not want it to do a lot of jumping given injury risks but surely aerobic endurance is testable directly or with scientific equipment.
2. Most of these horses seem to be the progeny of flat horses bred for up to 12 furlongs. Surely it would make sense to breed them from horses bred for longer distances. Or does it not matter? Can one infer three mile ability from pedigree?
3. Can DNA or muscle tests indicate stamina?
4. Is there really much difference between 2 miles and 3 miles? After all human athletes often have quite a wide range of optimal distance eg 5000m runners are usually good at 10000m as well.
5. Long distance human athletes often train by running hundreds of miles each month. Why can’t horses do the same?
While a trainer have a fair idea whether a horse may get a certain trip, until they actually race over that distance there is no telling. Dick Hern never worked the Brigadier over further than 7 furlongs because it would have been pointless to blunt his speed. I very much doubt that trainers would work a horse over an extreme distance seriously for the same reasons.
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I’d doubt that many trainer’s have the facilities to test their horses over extreme distances, and so many use interval training anyway.
I recall John Dunlop, on being asked if is horse would stay that day’s trip, replying "We don’t actually know, till we try them", and I’d be confident that’s the case with most major trainers.I can understand that in the 1950s maybe trainers had excuses for not knowing. I’m just suggesting that nowadays if they really wanted to find out they could, with a bit of effort/technology.
Wish I could get my money back on all the horses I’ve backed over the years that the trainer has said that if the horse settles he should get the trip. Isn’t part of the fun of racing, though, trying to work out for ourselves if they will or won’t? Or if the trainer has been running them over an inadequate trip etc.
Yes, you would think that the common sense thing to do would be for trainers to try any horse over said trip at "home" before the any race.
However, that ( as far as longer distances are concerned ) is never the case. Very few trainers, if any, will practice that. Vincent O’Brien, for example, took it on trust that Nijinsky would stay a mile and half. I think I’m right in saying that Nijinsky never worked beyond 7 furlongs at home. Arkle was another who was never asked to attempt 3 miles on the home gallops. The fear being that they "would leave their race on the home gallops" and would probably take the edge off them come race day.
I recall Alex Bird being asked about a horse’s potentail ability to stay or not. He replied that no amount of home gallops would get a horse to stay and that only the racecourse would you find that out. He was one who took no heed of breeding in order to ascertain whether a horse had the potential to stay, instead focusing on how relaxed a horse travelled during its races – maintaining that if a class racehorse relaxed enough and travelled with relative ease, it would "get the trip."
As for the King George VI Chase: for all that it’s run on a flat course, it takes a certain amount of stamina to win it.
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Good question; I often wondered why Moscow Flyer wasn’t tried at 3 miles, which after all is more prestigious. He had no problem with 2+1/2 over fences, and won on the soft at 2+ 1/2 over hurdles. I presumed Jessica Harrington knew something we didn’t.
Not staying is relative.One must stay "better" than ones rivals, to be a good stayer.Sometimes a horse will just get the two miles.So he won’t stay three.Staying three miles means having an effort still in the tank when asked at the end of the race.A good jockey can give the trainer feedback on how the horse was travelling at the end of the race.Also a good jockey can put the horse to sleep so he will keep going forever.The secret is for the jockey to stay calm even when he is losing ground while "asleep".
I’m no expert on breeding, in fact I don’t know a thing about it. In forty odd years the only time I took any interest which was minimal was when I bought a few horses in the 80/90’s.
I take it the real question here is how do you know a horse will stay who is not really bred for it?
The way I look at it or was taught to by listening to others was Master Minded eg he’s way too fast at 2 miles to be getting 3 miles plus so that’s my rule of thumb.
Nutty as it may seem it don’t think Kauto Star truly stays 3m2f round Cheltenham but he had two huge assets in his exceptionally high cruising speed and on the spot acceleration that compensated for the lack of real stamina that allowed him to win 2 Gold Cups. In two other gold cups against Denman and Long Run when these assets were not so much in evidence for whatever reasons he stopped like shot the minute he hit the rising ground.
I think just watching a horse you get a good idea if they will stay further. I think a lot depends on how they carry themselves through a race. The relaxed types like Don’t Push It who just falls asleep can go on for miles and take next to nothing out of themselves but others who look like they want to race every yard of the way never seem to get further. I suppose that’s why Henry refused race Frankel over further than a mile until he could teach him to relax more.
Ultimately no one can be sure until they try we/they can only guess.
E.G. Nicky Henderson says Sprinter Sacre is a proper 2 miler. I’ll bet anyone a banana to a bunch of apples if he wins the Arkle, Nicky will be quoted as saying he thinks he’ll stay much further, before the season is out.
I am a bit bemused by the general state of ignorance about horses’ ability to go three miles. The debates on Master Minded and Oscar Whisky spring to mind.
Some points to clarify:
1. Surely it would not be that difficult to let a horse gallop three miles as part of its training, and see if it runs out of puff. I can understand why you might not want it to do a lot of jumping given injury risks but surely aerobic endurance is testable directly or with scientific equipment.
2. Most of these horses seem to be the progeny of flat horses bred for up to 12 furlongs. Surely it would make sense to breed them from horses bred for longer distances. Or does it not matter? Can one infer three mile ability from pedigree?
3. Can DNA or muscle tests indicate stamina?
4. Is there really much difference between 2 miles and 3 miles? After all human athletes often have quite a wide range of optimal distance eg 5000m runners are usually good at 10000m as well.
5. Long distance human athletes often train by running hundreds of miles each month. Why can’t horses do the same?
1a. Gallop the horse 3 miles
Horses need to be fit to race. To be fit, it has been well ducumented that they do not need to run in training anywhere near the full distance of a race. For a proper test of stamina, a trial needs to be run at race pace with at least two other horses (with proper jockeys), both of sufficient class to get the trialist out of a canter. Then the trainer would not be able to run any of them in a proper race for several weeks. For a 3 mile chaser it would not be enough to run over a flat course; you would need to throw in 20 fences as well. You need to test the energy needed to jump the fences as well as just running. Chasers/hurdlers (and most flat horses) would not like running at race pace on a circular 6 furlong track with 5 obstacles in it; much too sharp. It is not worthwhile for any trainer to build a full size track. So, just pay the entrance money and run in a 3 mile race of suitable class at a suitable track. It is much simpler and much more cost-effective.
1b. Test aerobic endurance
Other than a horse having normally functioning airways and lungs, aerobic efficiency has insignificant effect on endurance when compared to the processing that takes place in the muscles. The proportions of different types of muscle fibres (Type 1, Type 2A, 2B and 2C), the storage and use of Myoglobin within muscle tissue, and the production and processing efficiency of Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP) within the cells of muscle fibres are the significant factors. But even if these can be tested, the component factors of any form of life are just so complicated and inter-related that it would be impossible to judge in a purely scientific manner which elements were working well and which were not. Muscle excitability, contractability, extensibility and elasticity could all be a bit off; the heart could be a little less efficient, the cartilage at the joints could be a bit fragile, etc, etc. And all could contribute to whether a horse stays 3 miles or not.
2a. Most are the progeny of flat 12f horses
I am not sure that is true. But, speed is important in all types of racehorses; in the end they do need to run faster than their competitors. So some speed is desirable, even in staying chasers. It seems that breeding together two horses that stay two miles will more likely produce an animal that will stay further than that. Experience has shown that a horse that has eight great-grandparents that all stayed three miles is highly likely to stay six miles, and be too slow to win any race over normal distances.
3a. Can DNA or muscle tests indicate stamina?
Not by much, and not reliably either. Probably not any better at this stage than a good human judge of thoroughbred horseflesh.
4a. Is there much difference between 2 & 3 miles?
Horses are not humans, kangaroos are not wombats, elephants are not goats. Surely that 6F sprinter can stay a mile? Surely that 1000/2000 Guineas winner can stay the Oaks/Derby distance? All experience has shown that some horses can win decent races at a variety of distances, but many cannot, and we humans cannot tell in advance which can and which cannot.
5a. Humans run 100s of miles, why not horses?
They do not need to, thank goodness. Thoroughbreds are the result of selective breeding for speed. In getting the greater speed, some elements of fragility have been introduced. Thoroughbreds are easily injured by slight mishaps and, ironically, by running too much.
Great post MV.
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The only comment I would make is that you can run a horse over a trip and still not be sure whether it ‘stayed the trip’ or not, especially on the flat.
You will frequently see a comment such as ‘stayed on at one pace’ in the in-running comments which is frequently taken to mean the horse needs further. The reality might just as easily be that the horse needs dropping back in trip as the ‘one-pace’ could equally mean the horse’s finishing effort has been blunted by the extra distance rather than the horse being a plodder that needs further
A jockey’s comments after the race can also be very misleading. We owned what turned out to be an out-and-out 7f specialist yet after a race over 9.5 furlongs at Wolverhampton, Seb Sanders stated the horse would stay 12f ‘standing on her head’.
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All horses ‘stay’ as such, it just depends on their opposition how far.
Nacarat,for instance, stays 3m, and has twice won at above that distance, yet is invariably found wanting stamina when put to the sword by top class opposition.
Further to Tuffers point above, race reports will often say a horse ‘weakened’ when it was simply outpaced, and there are dozens of examples in the form book that have gone on to run better over further than they reportedly ‘weakened’ at.Aside from the very top horses I think the general rule is:
one-paced horses are stayers in that the others eventually come back
two-paced horses are middle-distance types (under either code)
three-paced horses are minimum trippersIf you tried to qualify further, let’s say category 1 types have a maximum speed of 25 mph
Cat 2 – 30 mph
Cat 3 – 35 mph
Given the same nutrition levels and fitness, all that the category 1 horse requires to beat the category 3 is enough time. He might be a furlong behind after a mile and a furlong in front after 4 miles.
It might even be reasonable to claim that the slower the horse, the further he will stay. P Scudamore said that Earth Summit – a horse he sold for 6,000Gns, was the slowest horse he’d ever come across.
I’m not into sectional times but my understanding is that the slowest part of most races is the last part.
There are of course a few freaks like Frankel who’d be at his best at a mile but would, in my opinion, have the ability (ridden a bit more conservatively) to get far enough clear in a Gr1 12f race that the others would be unable to catch him in time.
Big Buck’s, another freak, has such an efficient stride, big engine and switched off attitude, he could win between 2 miles and 5 miles were there such a trip.
A fascinating subject, though frustrating. I recall being amazed at the support for Cloudy Lane in the 2010 National as I was convinced he would not stay and watched him go from galloping to nothing like a true non-stayer. Yet based on Ballabriggs desperately clinging to the shreds of a 10-length final fence lead at the Festival, I decided that he too would not stay at Aintree.
Finally, returning to the tortoise and hare theory, perhaps the greatest example in racing history is the 1973 Grand National. The magnificent 2 mile Champion Chaser, Crisp, conceding 23lbs to the greatest ever Aintree horse, was nailed by an old-fashioned one-pacer!
Glad it wasn’t just me that watched that race and didn’t back him for the National because of it. Or, I was prepared to risk it at 33/1 [which I missed] but not when his price came in. Ouch.
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