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I found the story in the Post today about punters’ experiences getting on (or not!) interesting. I also found the responses from some of the bookmakers to be just plain dishonest. They used the excuse of knocking back the "arbers" to justify refusing or restricting bets but in my experience you don’t need to be an arber to have problems getting on, just a punter with a clue. Indeed, sometimes all you need is to be a lucky punter- I remember fondly having my first account closed with Surrey Racing way back after backing a few ante post winners at Cheltenham: a poor trading decision by them as I wasn’t a consistent winner at the time and they’d have got it all back. I thought it would be interesting if we shared our experiences in getting on with the various firms-in my case I’m starting with the best and ending with the worst. By the way, I’m not an arber!
Hills
I’ve never been restricted or knocked back by them even though I’m a net winner- the introduction of guaranteed odds is an added bonus- excellent.
Corals
Never had a problem, except that they’re hard to beat!
Paddy Power
Would have been no. 2 up to this week when they started restricting my bets, but deserve plenty of credit for pricing up early and taking a good bet.
Victor Chandler
Very, good, some restrictions on occasion but no complaints.
Bet 365
Probably have the worst reputation for knockbacks but my experience is good, though they do restrict bets.
Tote
Not great. I seldom seem to bet with them, though- don’t seem to take a view very often and do restrict bets.
Blue Square
Was severely restricted with them but a break of a few years and a new identity seems to have helped! Doubt it wil last….
Ladbrokes
Can’t get on on the net or on the phone for a decent amount. Luckily there’s a shop down the road the missus is very lucky in….
The Rest
Betfred, Skybet, Betdirect, Sporting Odds, Boyles, Bruce…
All a complete waste of time for me anyway.Won’t lay the proverbial 2 bananas to a banana. I find their representatives on TV hilarious- especially the eponymous Leon Blanche of Boyles- he should blanche at some of the porkies he has to tell!I thought there were some dishonest responses in there, notably Hills who claimed to "trade the event not the punter".
That is a downright lie and I’m happy to be quoted on it.
I read the article on the train this morning, and based on some comments from here, it was clear several were lying, specifically Blanche from Boylesports.
I did wonder would it be worth compiling experiences and sending them to the Post to expose certain ‘layers’?
I don’t know why anybody reads the Racing Post .. its full of rubbish like this.
They should get a punter live on ATR and have him phone in a few bets, just for a laugh.
I’m taking a different view here.
I thought the article was exceptionally poor. I understand that the ‘punters’ quoted wanted to remain anonymous and I respect that – but there was not one piece of evidence to support the main thrust of the article.
Obviously, I’m not saying that every company will take any amount at an advertised price. However, given the very emotional nature of this subject and the difficulty we have in verifying punters’ accounts, I think the topic is almost impossible to analyse.
In short, I think most punters tell lies about their betting. Tales of getting knocked-back (though real in some circumstances) are exaggerated to an incredible degree.
As David Brady said on another topic, if you believed the Betfair forum there are thousands of people who are going to be affected by their new charges. The majority of whom are probably lying, but it’s great for the egos of some to believe that they’re such good judges that companies want to stop them betting.
I agree that the comments from bookies’ reps regarding arbing was very unclear. Some saying that they were directly affected, some saying they had no impact. Again, this is something that should have been looked at in-depth.
To be honest, I thought the article was a missed opportunity.
Arber: A lower form of punting life who backs a horse with a bookmaker and immediately lays it back on Betfair to guarantee a profit. See "Glenn"
I found the story in the Post today about punters’ experiences getting on (or not!) interesting. I also found the responses from some of the bookmakers to be just plain dishonest. They used the excuse of knocking back the "arbers" to justify refusing or restricting bets but in my experience you don’t need to be an arber to have problems getting on, just a punter with a clue. Indeed, sometimes all you need is to be a lucky punter- I remember fondly having my first account closed with Surrey Racing way back after backing a few ante post winners at Cheltenham: a poor trading decision by them as I wasn’t a consistent winner at the time and they’d have got it all back. I thought it would be interesting if we shared our experiences in getting on with the various firms-in my case I’m starting with the best and ending with the worst. By the way, I’m not an arber!
Hills
I’ve never been restricted or knocked back by them even though I’m a net winner- the introduction of guaranteed odds is an added bonus- excellent.
Corals
Never had a problem, except that they’re hard to beat!
Paddy Power
Would have been no. 2 up to this week when they started restricting my bets, but deserve plenty of credit for pricing up early and taking a good bet.
Victor Chandler
Very, good, some restrictions on occasion but no complaints.
Bet 365
Probably have the worst reputation for knockbacks but my experience is good, though they do restrict bets.
Tote
Not great. I seldom seem to bet with them, though- don’t seem to take a view very often and do restrict bets.
Blue Square
Was severely restricted with them but a break of a few years and a new identity seems to have helped! Doubt it wil last….
Ladbrokes
Can’t get on on the net or on the phone for a decent amount. Luckily there’s a shop down the road the missus is very lucky in….
The Rest
Betfred, Skybet, Betdirect, Sporting Odds, Boyles, Bruce…
All a complete waste of time for me anyway.Won’t lay the proverbial 2 bananas to a banana. I find their representatives on TV hilarious- especially the eponymous Leon Blanche of Boyles- he should blanche at some of the porkies he has to tell!I`ve asked this question about 10 times now but no answer…………..What is a “reasonable“ amount?
The retail units i bet with are foreign to most of you as are the online Bookmakers,my only account in the UK is Betfair thus for UK horseracing that`s my restriction has i can`t get a price anywhere else!!
With regards to French racing i was getting some decent bets covered by the likes of WettenLeip/Springer/Wetten.de in Germany but im convinced they are dumping into the pools now ,thus im more likely to take a 4% rebate and go into the pool myself,hardly ideal!!
With regards to Sportsbetting i struggle to get on with retail units unless i bet in systems ie 3 from 5 etc,i`ve got used to this way of betting ,you can take it from me that if you are getting prices over the 100% Book price restrictions like minimum three are no problem,since ive been punting with European Bookmakers i`ve learnt to use the system to my advantage,whilst most have access to Betradar and Betfair they don`t move lines so quickly as the UK counterparts,furthermore,the average UK bookmaker will probably cover 500 betting opportunities a week,Croatian Bookmakers would be nearer 5000 thus its easier to find the odd loophole,using this form of betting i can get covered for 10-20K per week without setting alarm bells ringing!!
When Betting football online i go straight into the Asian h`caps, no half decent Asian h`cap Bookmaker would refuse anything under 10K in one hit ,where only talking of a 1.25-1.75% takeout!
With regards to Tennisbetting Centrebet are ok until you make a big withdrawel then they start considering your stakes,however,ive never had problems getting covered for a €1000 so i won`t complain!
I think the secret with profitable Gambling is having resources, im always amazed how naive “even successful punters are!!
I guess its a matter of trust but networking certainly comes into my way of gambling!!
"Thou shall not win" is the first rule of bookmaking. It really is sickening to see so many bookmaker reps being given airtime to promote their fictional odds.
I’ve only ever bet with one bookmaker other than BF which is William Hill and they always laid my bets. But then I was just getting into the game and a bit of an idiot so it’s surprise.
I now only use them for telephone betting if I am somewhere without a computer and want to get a bet on (Very rare).
Haven’t seen the article so can’t comment on that, but as a rule I think knockbacks and account closures reflect as poorly on the money management skills of the punters who suffer them as it does the bookmakers who refuse to admit publically that they indulge in such practices.
In the days when I bet exclusively (off-course) with the Credit books, I opened as many accounts as possible (excluding what I deemed mickey-mouse outfits) so that bets could be spread around, and used all regularly so that any one of them could not accuse me of solely trading with them to nick ‘top of the market’ early birds, ‘first cut’ live shows, ‘dead eight’ EW or whatever other strategies likely to get up their collective noses.
When the occasional ‘lucky’ run occurred and a winning sequence developed with an individual bookie, the precautionary step of placing some ‘mug’ bets with them was taken e.g the more speculative supplementary bet on a ‘rag’ I was planning to place elsewhere, small ‘fun’ multiples, and short priced favs
I did suffer the occasional, ‘just a minute sir’ over the phones resulting in being offered full stake to say 6/1 when 7/1 was advertised but never the ‘rest at SP’ line, stake knockback or – heaven forbid – account closure.
Those that enjoy striving to beat an individual member of the ‘old enemy’ be that by playing up a winning run, betting exclusively in ‘thieving’ EW Doubles or whatever do so only to satisfy their own egos and ultimately deserve short shrift from the layer they’ve taken for a ride…IMVHO
In punting staunch self belief is a virtue but the wish to massage an ego a drawback.
Perhaps pertinent to add that all this refers to goings on more than five years ago before switching to the Exchanges so whether the off-course books nowadays are less forgiving of winners or the winning run – particularly the new breed of internet books of which I have no expereience – than back then I wouldn’t know
With the row of bookmakers on oddschecker as long as it is, and with it being so easy to compare prices nowadays, anybody that bets with an internet bookmaker, is only going to do so when that bookie is either joint or outright best price.
Interesting quote from Simon Clare who says ‘Punters who only seek to bet with us on arbs can expect to be restricted on a regular basis.’ Without speaking specifically about any bookmakers, for me you could substitute the word arbs for ‘best price’.
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If I were a bookmaker, nothing would please me more than to knock back a big brash loudmouth, the likes of Harry Findlay.
Drone’s approach would be much better for anyone looking for regular bets, rather than kudos.The article was a missed opportunity. Irrelevant questions about meaningless price guarantees and the recession and not asking the proper questions about arbing. Namely:
1) Why do you label people arbers when you have no knowledge of what they do elsewhwere? Why not just call them ‘best price takers’ or doesn’t that suit your propoganda?
2) Are you willing to lay non-arbable selections to all-comers to a set liability (the answer is no in all cases)
Plenty of hard to swallow replies. Including those from firms who say they don’t differentiate across platforms. Why do said companies keep giving messages to their online clients that they should ring up and the bet might then be accepted?
1) Why do you label people arbers when you have no knowledge of what they do elsewhwere? Why not just call them ‘best price takers’ or doesn’t that suit your propoganda?
It is a tricky one and I agree that it is an easy excuse to label and treat a “best price taker” unfairly as an arber.
From the other side of the fence though I would make this observation. We will often put up a “best price” of any bookmaker on oddschecker – let’s say for the sake of the argument it is even money. If the horse is trading at 2.02 – 2.04 for just buttons on Betfair we won’t see much for it at all on the internet despite the fact that we would happily lay a) more than is currently available on the exchange and b) our price is as good (if not better) after commission (and potential Premium Tax –
) anyway. The second someone asks for a fiver at 1.98 and there we will be a run of marked up or new accounts all trying to get up on the horse. That is why a lot of accounts are marked up as arb/lemming accounts. If non-arbers who just want to get a price are caught up in this, I think some of the blame has to lie at the door of arb players- who have undoubtedly made it harder for everyone else to get on.I would add that I don’t think bookies (and I would include us in this criticism to an extent) always help themselves. Firms should be prepared to take a decent bet on the higher quality racing and should make more effort to differentiate between punters and arbers.
Haven’t seen the article so can’t comment on that, but as a rule I think knockbacks and account closures reflect as poorly on the money management skills of the punters who suffer them as it does the bookmakers who refuse to admit publically that they indulge in such practices.
I don’t really agree with that Drone. If I fancy something I look for the best price (unless I think it will drift) then look to be accommodated to my chosen stake. If I can’t get it all on in one place I’ll split it up. Who I get on with is irrelevant to me. Nor do I particularly care who I’m winning and losing with. In reality the "fiddlers" make too many mistakes and hence tend to lose more to the good punters. They counter this by restricting accounts until you can have a fiver each-way. What they should do is invest in some decent odds-compiling talent then have the confidence in their people to stand up and lay a bet, instead of telling bare-faced lies as they do at present about the big bets they’ve laid.
It’s not the punter’s fault if a particular firm are clueless and I don’t see why it’s the punter’s fault if he seeks to exploit mistakes.Carvills – come into the real world will you!
"Invest in some decent odds compiling talent"- u think there is actually a pool of skilled individuals as such out there?? The majority of guys doing it for these firms are trained monkeys who take a tissue and a betfair line and produce the prices*. And ultimately that is what the majority of the firms in question want as they are not interested in taking positions – just towing the market line.
Ask yourself this – why are arbers so successful?? Because they follow the market line and for all their turnover they generate very little profit and in most cases a loss for the high street firms. So if this is where firms are losing money, why not turn it on it’s head and react to this situation as many firms are doing now such as Blue Square and Paddy Power and when there is an arb, cut the price, and use these individuals to their advantage instead of bemoaning their existence. They can then lay what they want at the reduced price to a genuine punter.
A firm that reacts to arbers, and thus the market, will be far more profitable in the long run, rather than abiding by the opinion of an individual "odds compiler", and it is for these reasons that these firms operate in this fashion and ultimately show a profit on their balance sheet at the year end.
* I state the majority but Coral are generally the exception to the rule given that they tend to take more extreme positions than most a la Denman v Kauto when they were 11/10 Denman and 2s freely available. They may have been proved right on the day in question but that is no good to Coral’s retail estate when their slip numbers are down because they’re not even the next price down (7/4) on Denman and punters are doing their multiples elsewhere consequently.
They are admirable in the extent that they’re probably the last in the old school type firms which take a view, evident from tdk’s weekly column in the RP. However, at the end of the day they too are a plc and no doubt management will eventually demand that they tow the market line, no matter how good tdk and his esteemed colleagues are!!
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