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The 2000 Guineas is a top race whichever way you look at it. For start, the winners of the Derby and the Irish 1000 Gns ran behind GW. Extremely good form.;)
And even though I stood to gain a great deal of money had Sir Percy triumphed – and have other issues about Ballydoyle dominance – I stood and admired the colt’s instant turn of foot and total dominance of the field.
I hope GW comes back and to show it again.
Expect an anorak to pick on on the Irish 1000 gunieas point Max ;)
I wondered whetehr he would ever run at Goodwood though. If there was one course that might not suit him (and the jockey loves it there of course ;) ) then that was it
Track like Goodwood would hardly help a horse coming back with a problem either like he had.
Quote: from yquem21 on 10:23 am on June 29, 2006[br]
Quote: from PAULCS on 9:53 am on June 29, 2006[br] this is getting reminiscent of Hawk Wing’s 4yo career.
<br>You mean living off the hype generated by one over-rated success?
;)<br>
<br>I thought Hawkwing was a great horse. But physically a bit soft. In fairness to the current guineas winner, he has had plenty of racing up to this point.<br>
(Edited by SirHarryLewis at 1:13 pm on June 29, 2006)
SHL
Re Breeders Cup<br>If this gives the sense of deja vu after I postulated a defeat for Hurricane Run last saturday,I apologize.Never been left handed,with Fallon does not have the option let alone likeklyhood of going off the front end plus<br>a big trip away.If not temperamentally doudtful remarkably ignorant for a horse of his experience.Add to the mix Churchill’s tight inner grass and first time against older pros its fanciful to think he can win a race which is perenially filled with solid performers but difficult to win.Then again theres the dirt option with either a wolves or lingfield conditions event as a lead up.<br> Grant.
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Quote: from clivex on 11:04 am on June 29, 2006[br]Why was the gunieas success overrated? <br>
<br>We’ve been through this before.
Just to refresh your memory, the second wanted further than the mile he faced that day, the fourth had yet to fully come to himself and the rest are nothing special by classic standards.
I’m not saying that George Washington isn’t a very good horse (indeed, I hope that he can come back to take on his elders later in the season) but he really can’t be labelled a great one on that performance.
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Quote: from trackside528 on 2:55 pm on June 29, 2006[br]couldnt disagree with you more about Hawk Wing m8…
<br>In what way?
Hawk Wing was a very talented racehorse who could have been a champion but simply didn’t have the requisite luck in a couple of races (Guineas, Irish Champion), stamina in one (Derby) or speed in another (QEII). My point is that he was lauded to the skies after sluicing up in the Lockinge but the form was very suspicious and after one defeat (with the obligatory injury excuse) he was packed off to stud.
I dont like labelling any horse a great horse on just one performance but GW did have a two year old career aswell and was pretty brilliant at times there.
He was brilliant in a decent enough guineas and with regards to the whole Irish guineas debacle and the only excuse for anything behind him that day was that they were not as good as him and I dont believe any of them ever would be given any kind of decent ground.
SHL
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Quote: from trackside528 on 4:08 pm on June 29, 2006[br]Perhaps the unluckiest stroke of all in Hawk Wing’s case was that he was a part of the same generation as the Rock.
<br>Perhaps the greatest misfortune was that connections didn’t have more faith in him; had they really believed he was as good as they were hyping him up to be, why would they have run stablemates who ended up beating him in the first two of his classics?
When asked on the BBC about why they were running so many horses in the Derby, John Magnier replied to the effect that all of the horses deserved their chance, and that there’s more to each individual horse than just it’s owner – everyone involved with the horse throughout it’s life, from the breeders to the bloodstock agents to the co-owners etc. shouldn’t be deprived of the chance to be involved in a Derby winner. It’s not just a vanity thing; it’s people’s careers and livelihoods.
Rock of Gibraltar was a dual-Group 1 winner at 2, and High Chaparral also bagged a juvenile Group 1. Not running them to leave the way clear for Hawk Wing, apart from being a dubious thing to do in terms of denying the race itself of vital ingredients (the Guineas without the Dewhurst winner? The Derby without the Racing Post Trophy winner?) would have done a huge disservice to a lot of people.
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All fair points, Mr Flynn, but the counter-argument is that they were forced to retrieve Hawk Wing’s reputation as a four-year-old due to their own dismantling of it at three.
Nobody could argue that he wasn’t the best horse in the Guineas, beaten only by the draw, or that High Chapparal outstayed him at Epsom. However, had Hawk Wing not been beaten in those races, he would probably have been retired to stud at the end of his classic campaign.
The problem was in that year where else could you run a horse like Hawk Wing etc. HW had to run in the 2000 Guineas, as on reflection did ROG….HC had to run in the Derby etc etc. It was just one of those years where Ballydoyle had 20 something Group 1 wins that season…..stablemates were always going to clash.
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Aidan, taht ties in quite nicely with jackane’s recent thread about Ballydoyle’s domination. Nobody can begrudge them their success- they all work hard for it- but their virtual monopoly is not only detrimental to the health of the sport as a whole but also impacts upon themselves.
Had they not been forced, as you say, to run Rock Of Gibraltar in the Guineas and High Chapparal in the Derby, Hawk Wing would have gone to stud at a far higher fee than he is currently worth.
Clive, lol. Its been a long day.:biggrin:
I don’t want to go into the visual perception/pace thing again, but that turn of foot GW displayed in the Guineas is the mark of a top horse.
Imo both the Guineas and the Derby are already proving good, solid markers for high quality animals. (And for once, I’d love to see a good 3-y-o take on and beat the older horses to put new life into these old, often maligned, established Classic races).
And as Sir Harry Lewis points out, GW was a pretty smart 2-y-o. That counts for a great deal.
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Quote: from trackside528 on 6:09 pm on June 29, 2006[br]…on the contrary, if they didnt run the other horses, it could be argued that they wernt confident he would beat his own stablemates…<br>
<br>It would be easier still to argue that they ran other horses in the race in case something went wrong with the favourite or (whisper it) that he wasn’t as good as they had made him out to be.
This clearly wasn’t the case with Hawk Wing, who was the best horse in the field on Guineas day, but it has been known to happen elsewhere.
Quote: from yquem21 on 5:53 pm on June 29, 2006[br]Aidan, taht ties in quite nicely with jackane’s recent thread about Ballydoyle’s domination. Nobody can begrudge them their success- they all work hard for it- but their virtual monopoly is not only detrimental to the health of the sport as a whole but also impacts upon themselves.
Had they not been forced, as you say, to run Rock Of Gibraltar in the Guineas and High Chapparal in the Derby, Hawk Wing would have gone to stud at a far higher fee than he is currently worth.<br>
yquem21,
I don’t dispute your point, no doubt HW would have gone to stud at a higher value. However ultimately the true value of a stallion is the results of his progeny who have raced. I would imagine that HW does get a full and decent set of mares each year, so its how his children race in the coming years will be the true test of his value. Remember that a significant increase on Montjeu and Giants Causeway’s fee only came after the running of their first batch of three year olds.
JohnJ.
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