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Define what you mean by "top class" and I’ll give an answer.
Most Group 1s are regularly won by horses rated in the 120s/130s.
Immediately followed by the words
"… and he got second place in a juvenile hurdle at Cartmel a few months ago … we we’re really chuffed."
Steve
LOL! I was thinking almost the same thing.
‘Finished a staying on 4th round Towcester.’Per Prufrock : "Define what you mean by "top class" and I’ll give an answer.
Most Group 1s are regularly won by horses rated in the 120s/130s."Well, if we’re talking "top" class – we might as well start at a TR of 130.
If you say let’s make it 120, who was the last Derby winner rated less than this?It’s also worth considering that the Derby is a test of trainer too. Can a trainer recognise a horse likely to be good enough who can handle the track and stay the trip? Can that trainer get that horse fit to do himself justice in early June?
The demand for a classic or top GP1 race to always be won a top-class Brigadier Gerard / Shergar / Dancing Brave etc. is unrealistic as long as we rate/handicap horses, thus guaranteeing a ready supply of "inferior" winners. That doesn’t mean that the race concerned (in the case the Derby) is going downhill.
Have a read of any old racing books and you’ll frequently find the authors comparing some Derby winners unfavourably with earlier ones.
Should we have tooled around with age/ sex/trip and track Derby conditions because Volodyovski (1901) was inferior to Diamond Jubilee (1900) or because Morston was inferior to Roberto ? I don’t think we should.This response is certainly not knee-jerk but I am happy for it be viewed as "reactionary" – I don’t know which are the geldings who would have added to the Derby’s lustre in the 22 years I’ve been following Racing. This is a bit like the global warming debate – just because some Derby winners have been significantly below standard in the last 12-15 years doen’t mean that there is anything wrong with the race.
Of course 230-odd years of history matters, it lends the race a perspective which those looking merely at the last few seaons lack.
As someone has already said, regarding the vagaries of Epsom, did the gradients get worse since Nijinsky, or Shergar? Was not the camber the same for Dancing Brave (yes I know), Nashwan, Generous, Galileo and High Chapparal as it was for Shaamit, Benny the Dip and High Rise?
Any tinkering to the Derby ought to be fought tooth-and-nail."consistently won by a top class racehorse" DJ.
Volponi is the exception that proves the rule, he mixes it amongst Ghostzapper, Tiznow (twice), Invasor, Pleasantly Perfect, Cat Thief, Awesome Again, Skip Away and Alphabet Soup in the last ten years who’ve all won the big race.
Also prior to that the likes of Cigar, AP Indy, Black Tie Affair, Unbridled, Alysheba, Sunday Silence, Ferdinand and Wild Again. Few would argue that the above are not all top class racehorses.
Exceptional record compared to the likes of the Derby, July Cup, Arc which can be won by horses not considered genuinely the best in the race.
Ah, well, now, y’see I wasn’t really wondering about what had happened in the past but what might happen in the future.
You’ll have to excuse the rambling of an aged, almost senile, Welshman.
Seems to me that from the moment a well-bred colt is born, he is not trained to be a champion racehorse but to be a champion stallion. With the races becoming a bit of a necessary nuisance.
Which trainer in the middle of the last century muttered (I paraphrase here, because I can’t remember the trainer or the quote) an ideal stable would be one full of geldings.
It seems to me that The Derby has just become another Group 1 for connections to list under their stallions acheivements.
To my mind the game, at the very top level, has become more about breeding than racing, which seems a little cock-eyed!
The tree is not being seen because it is obscure by the woods.
There is much more money to be earned in the breeding-sheds than on the course………….is that right and good for racing?
I am not sure that allowing geldings to run in the Derby and other classics would make much difference to the situation. Whether connections would take the chance and give up thgeir colt’s career as a stallion in exchange for a career as a racehorse is obviously very debatable.
Just a thought.
If someone knows the old-time trainer and the quote, I would be grateful if they could remind me.
I was going to google for it before making this post………but I forgot!!!!
Colin
Surely the point of not allowing geldings in certain races is not to exclude horses, but to disuade owners/trainers from gelding prematurely, and thus preventing the situation where a good horse has already been gelded by the time he proves himself?
In addition, if a colt has had to be gelded by the June of his 3yo career, I would be concerned that he either had temperament or physical problems, which probably means he is not a loss to the breed, and is therefore inferior to an entire colt who has managed to win the Derby.
Seabird,
Do you have any facts that back up your statement that Epsom has a record of more fatalities than a different venue where you think the Derby should be run at?
Steve,
You said that more Irish trainers target the Irish Derby rather than the Epsom one, however Aidan O’Brien has always sent his best three year old middle distance horse to Epsom.
JohnJ.
Irish Derby – since 1999
[list:ejb69r1p]1999: Montjeu (lifetime highest RPR 136)
2000: Sinndar (132)
2001: Galileo (132)
2002: High Chaparral (130 – winning at EPS)
2003: Alamshar (133)
2004: Grey Swallow (126)
2005: Hurricane Run (133)
2006: Dylan Thomas (130 – LTO)
2007: Soldier of Fortune?That’s a pretty strong Gr1[/list:u:ejb69r1p]
John, don’t remember making any such statement.
Have a read of my post again, I think you may be overstating me.
"…………..there are a number of horses who have never raced after taking part in this particular race…………". is what I have appeared to say!
Colin.
Apologies!
Well have you statistics to back up that statement, Is Epsom better or worse than other courses?
John.
No, but I can remember off the top of my head two fatalities in the Derby, one very recently and a number who never ran again.
Can’t say I can remember any in the Guineas or Leger but wasn’t there one at the Curragh a year or so back, one of Ballydoyle’s?
Horatio Nelson (2006) and Coshocton (2002) are the most recent Derby fatalities.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Kings Best broke down in the Irish Derby too.
Coshocton’s was a heart-attack though so probably not the fault of the track and more due to pace or a heart condition (wouldn’t know which).
Seabird,
The trainer who wished for a yard full of geldings was George Todd, best known for training a gelding called Trelawney to twice do the double of Ascot Stakes and Queen Alexandra Stakes. He had to run in those races as he wasn’t eligible for the Gold Cup.
That was in the early 60’s – he also trained the Irish derby winner Sodium later that decade.
AP
Re Epsom injuries, what about Henbit and Pennekamp – also that the injury that ended the career of Mill Reef wa initially incurred in the Coronation Cup.
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