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The fact that we are here having this discussion says it all.Don’t you know breeders are having the same discussion.
What? As to who’s a ‘Tosser’ and who’s a ‘Prick’ Andy? Are they really?
Seeing how we have to throw a lot of hypothesis around speculating as to who is ‘The Greatest of all time’ I’ll throw a simple one in myself.
Frankel
ran in the Arc and gets beat because he just didn’t stay,Sir Henry tells the world thats exactly what he thought might happen but he bowed down to public pressure from us ‘Traditionalists’.Suddenly ‘Frankel’ cant possibly be the ‘Greatest of all Time’ because he lacked the true versatility associated with such horses,now we know from what we’ve seen that in Ginges words you would make ‘Frankel’ a 70/30 chance of staying the trip but until he’s actually attempted it in a Group 1 argy bargy race its just speculation.Now in the Real world we dont need to speculate as to just how good ‘The Really Greatest Horse of all Time’ was because he’s been there seen it done it and thats what counts for everything,No speculatives there,just solid facts! ‘Himself’ ‘Ginge’ and ‘Joni’ just try worming your way round that one then?
You are the only one speculating Gord.
He didn’t stay a mile and a half – simple as. Or at least his trainer had very grave doubts that he would. Why bother hypothesising?
If your only criteria is that he must have raced over a mile and a half to be considered the greatest then he will never be – in your eyes.
For me and millions like me it is irrelevant. I am not saying that it wouldn’t have been lovely to see him win an Arc or Derby but it does not PRECLUDE him from being the greatest just because he didn’t. ANd we knew from an early stage that he wouldn’t be winning those races because his trainer told us he wouldn’t be running in them.
Let’s be honest anyway, he pulverised the horse that had effectively won the previous 2 KG’s (if you allow for the fact that he finished upsides Danedream in the second one). And of course Danedream herself won the previous years Arc. Any form student will tell you what that signifies. He pulverised the horse that finished a close runner up in the Derby and went on to win the Irish Derby.
The problem is Gord that you are blind to everything else he did. You do not allow for the fact that he didn’t just win his races. He didn’t just beat his rivals. He trounced them. He annihilated them. He massacred his fields. Not once, not twice but countless times. You make no allowance for this at all. You just keep a’bang bang banging that drum in the hope that if you keep banging it for long enough we’lll all cave in and say "oh you know what oh King Of Foresight, Oh spotter of young talent, you were right all along! He WASN’T that good. He didn’t win over a mile and a half."
Well let me tell you oh King Of absolutely dick-all, as much as that drum is giving me the monster of all headaches, I will never back down. To coin the words of the immortal Chesney Hawkes "HE WAS THE ONE AND ONLY. NOBODY I’D RATHER BE. HE WAS THE ONE AND ONLY – CANT TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME!"
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
My Grandfathers 98yr old now and he’s been a Racing fanatic all his life,when he speaks I listen,its called experience and it counts for everything in this life we lead,no matter what avenue we’re discussing.When he says ‘Frankels’ the best he’s seen then I’ll take his word for it.We can only speculate about what should/coulda/woulda happened had he been stepped up in trip but what we saw in the 2000gns was the mark of a Miler second to none………And thats coming from me! What my Dear Grandfather did say though was that
Tudor Minstrel
was the nearest thing he’d seen to
Frankel
as both had many similarities,one of which was a headstrong attitude which at the time would have caught ‘Frankel’ out in the Derby as it did ‘Tudor Minstrel’.
You and your grandfather and no doubt others who think Frankel is the greatest mile of all time is fine, that’s your opinion but it doesn’t make it a fact. The same thing applies to anyone who states any horse is the greatest miler or any other distance or the greatest racehorse of all time.
Well let me tell you oh King Of absolutely dick-all,
Well to compare the ‘Greatest horse of all time’ with the ‘Greatest musical artist of all time’ just about sums your ability to assess comparitive brilliance…………
My Grandfathers 98yr old now and he’s been a Racing fanatic all his life,when he speaks I listen,its called experience and it counts for everything in this life we lead,no matter what avenue we’re discussing.When he says ‘Frankels’ the best he’s seen then I’ll take his word for it.We can only speculate about what should/coulda/woulda happened had he been stepped up in trip but what we saw in the 2000gns was the mark of a Miler second to none………And thats coming from me! What my Dear Grandfather did say though was that
Tudor Minstrel
was the nearest thing he’d seen to
Frankel
as both had many similarities,one of which was a headstrong attitude which at the time would have caught ‘Frankel’ out in the Derby as it did ‘Tudor Minstrel’.
You and your grandfather and no doubt others who think Frankel is the greatest mile of all time is fine, that’s your opinion but it doesn’t make it a fact. The same thing applies to anyone who states any horse is the greatest miler or any other distance or the greatest racehorse of all time.
So those who ‘Officially’ say
Frankel
is the Greatest of all time are just speculating too then ‘Brigadier’? Thats fine by me then.Glad we cleared that one up!
So those who ‘Officially’ say
Frankel
is the Greatest of all time are just speculating too then ‘Brigadier’? Thats fine by me then.Glad we cleared that one up!
Actually all the official rating does is say he’s the best since those ratings were first compiled in 1977 and even that took a revision to be made to another horse. However any who suggest he is the greatest horse of all time are speculating because they have no knowledge on which to base such a claim.
Having seen many great horses over the decades, I have come to recognise equine greatness and I know that we all have our favourites.
In my experience, racing fans are like football fan to a degree – they have a bias towards one horse or certain horses to the point of blind intransigence.
Once bitten, they become very entrenched in their views, and their evaluation of their favourites becomes ever more inflated and their perspective of others, skewed.
I have also noticed, even with very close friends; that if they have not flagged up a certain horse early in its career, and subsequently back against it in favour of other horses, their belligerence and criticisms towards the horse in question seems to intensify in order to somehow justify their dubious reasons for doing so.
Thus it is with our very own " King of Foresight "
Pride does indeed come before a fall.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
TAPK’s self proclaimed "loyalty" to his horses does not allow him to change his mind. Once a "Dancing Brave is the Greatest" always a "Dancing Brave is the Greatest".
Value Is EverythingI don’t understand how anyone can’t rate Frankel the best horse since 1977. I would’ve thought it was perfectly obvious???
Ah well, takes all sorts I suppose!!
Seeing how we have to throw a lot of hypothesis around speculating as to who is ‘The Greatest of all time’ I’ll throw a simple one in myself.
Frankel
ran in the Arc and gets beat because he just didn’t stay,Sir Henry tells the world thats exactly what he thought might happen but he bowed down to public pressure from us ‘Traditionalists’.Suddenly ‘Frankel’ cant possibly be the ‘Greatest of all Time’ because he lacked the true versatility associated with such horses,now we know from what we’ve seen that in Ginges words you would make ‘Frankel’ a 70/30 chance of staying the trip but until he’s actually attempted it in a Group 1 argy bargy race its just speculation.Now in the Real world we dont need to speculate as to just how good ‘The Really Greatest Horse of all Time’ was because he’s been there seen it done it and thats what counts for everything,No speculatives there,just solid facts! ‘Himself’ ‘Ginge’ and ‘Joni’ just try worming your way round that one then?
So according to you Gord: If Frankel lost the Arc through lack of stamina he’d be ineligible for "Greatest Of All Time", because he hasn’t shown enough versatility; despite having the GREATEST FORM of all time.
Yet Dancing Brave goes to America and can not cope with the demands of Santa Anita, finishing fourth. Yet is still proclaimed "Greatest Of All Time". It seems one horse is allowed to lose races, the other is disqualified from the title purely because he did not run in ONE specific race.
Value Is EverythingRed Rum won over 5f and 4.5 miles. He then must be the greatest horse of all time …….??
Just a silly argument!!
Having seen many great horses over the decades, I have come to recognise equine greatness and I know that we all have our favourites.
In my experience, racing fans are like football fan to a degree – they have a bias towards one horse or certain horses to the point of blind intransigence.
Once bitten, they become very entrenched in their views, and their evaluation of their favourites becomes ever more inflated and their perspective of others, skewed.
I have also noticed, even with very close friends; that if they have not flagged up a certain horse early in its career, and subsequently back against it in favour of other horses, their belligerence and criticisms towards the horse in question seems to intensify in order to somehow justify their dubious reasons for doing so.
Thus it is with our very own " King of Foresight "
Pride does indeed come before a fall.
Ok Mr Moral high ground,I’ll give you that one.I being the King of foresight and thats a Gimme by the way,not Self proclaimed but achieved through years of study and backed up by literally dozens of posts on here proving as much!But and it is a fact for one reason or another that bloody horse ‘Frankel’ slipped through my net,a net tighter than Mavis Rileys ‘trawler’ pants but History has shown that I ‘The King of Ante-Post Betting’ has shown a massive error of judgement! But and its a big But,there was only ever one real Ante-Post wager worth striking on this ‘Freak’ and its taken a horse like that to get the better of me as only a ‘Freak’ can……..No offence Ginge!
I saw the bloody thing win one ‘Summers’ evening in August 2010 it must have been a Friday the 13th experience as that was the only time he won Odds against,I took a peak at the Guineas betting straight after and saw he’d come in from 33/1 to 20/1 so I had every chance of getting on! I then watched him romp home at Doncaster and saw his odds slashed into 10/1,that was still a good price but for one reason or a plenty I saw flaws in him!! Ascot comes along and the alarm bells are singing out ‘Arazi’,’Arazi’,he’s slashed into 6/4 briefly and I’ve missed the boat,he’s even only 2/1 for the Derby and I knew there and then he had No chance of staying a 11/2m with this carefree style of running,Tom was merely a passenger,I honestly thought the horse had a screw loose and like I say the rest is history,I laid him to lose umpteen bloody times even at 20/1 on but the Beast had the better of me.Having planned a trip down to Newbury to meet my nemesis I did miss the oppotunity of grabbing the 95’s to a tenner on offer about him when his little injury scare surfaced but apart from that he was never what you would call a Punters Pal.I’ll call him the ‘One that got away’!!
Ok Mr Moral high ground,I’ll give you that one.I being the King of foresight and thats a Gimme by the way,not Self proclaimed but achieved through years of study and backed up by literally dozens of posts on here proving as much!But and it is a fact for one reason or another that bloody horse ‘Frankel’ slipped through my net,a net tighter than Mavis Rileys ‘trawler’ pants but History has shown that I ‘The King of Ante-Post Betting’ has shown a massive error of judgement! But and its a big But,there was only ever one real Ante-Post wager worth striking on this ‘Freak’ and its taken a horse like that to get the better of me as only a ‘Freak’ can……..No offence Ginge!
I saw the bloody thing win one ‘Summers’ evening in August 2010 it must have been a Friday the 13th experience as that was the only time he won Odds against,I took a peak at the Guineas betting straight after and saw he’d come in from 33/1 to 20/1 so I had every chance of getting on! I then watched him romp home at Doncaster and saw his odds slashed into 10/1,that was still a good price but for one reason or a plenty I saw flaws in him!! Ascot comes along and the alarm bells are singing out ‘Arazi’,’Arazi’,he’s slashed into 6/4 briefly and I’ve missed the boat,he’s even only 2/1 for the Derby and I knew there and then he had No chance of staying a 11/2m with this carefree style of running,Tom was merely a passenger,I honestly thought the horse had a screw loose and like I say the rest is history,I laid him to lose umpteen bloody times even at 20/1 on but the Beast had the better of me.Having planned a trip down to Newbury to meet my nemesis I did miss the oppotunity of grabbing the 95’s to a tenner on offer about him when his little injury scare surfaced but apart from that he was never what you would call a Punters Pal.I’ll call him the ‘One that got away’!!I have just watched the Lance Armstrong interview with Oprah.
I then came upstairs and read this post.
Two earth shattering confessions.
I am not sure which is the most damning. Which is the most revelatory. I am in a state of shock over both.
Corm/ Matron – can TAPK be stripped of his Poster of the Year 2011? Is he ALLOWED to keep his pseudonym? Can his legions of fans and follwers of his DLAP EVER believe anything he ever says again.
I remember the day I learnt Santa wasn’t real. Never did I think anything could top the disappointment and hurt I felt that day. Until this. Lance and Gord.
Two fallen hero’s
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
TAPK, you’re some man !
You remind me of one of my friends. He too likes a good debate – mainly sporting issues. He rarely, if ever, backs down from what he considers to be the one and only opinion which matters – his !
No matter how many flaws exist within his arguments, or how often we ( his friends ) dissect them, question them, and then take them apart bit by bit, he will not back down. In short, he just hates losing face by admitting he is wrong.If you say to him, black, you can bet any money that he will say white – just for the sheer hell of it. You know the type – arguments for arguments sake. His high falutin manner is only offset by the incorrigible, delusional side of his character. But a good soul nonetheless.
Which begs the question:
If you thought back then, as you readily admit, that Frankel would not stay a mile and a half; why then are you so uppity about him not contesting the Arc ? Seems a tad contradictory to me.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Which begs the question:
If you thought back then, as you readily admit, that Frankel would not stay a mile and a half; why then are you so uppity about him not contesting the Arc ? Seems a tad contradictory to me.
Because according to Gord, the Greatest horses are all 1m4f horses and Frankel never won the Derby, King George or Arc.
Value Is EverythingOk Mr Moral high ground,I’ll give you that one.I being the King of foresight and thats a Gimme by the way,not Self proclaimed but achieved through years of study and backed up by literally dozens of posts on here proving as much!
Nothing like trying to convince yourself Gord.Value Is EverythingWhy is versatility only be judged in terms of distance – what about age? Frankel was precocious to win at the highest level at two and tough and sound enough to still be winning at that level at four. Neither sea the stars nor db were precocious enought to win a gr1 at 2. In the same way that Frankel is derided for not not manning up and winning at 12f – why aren’t db and sts not derided for shirking the challenge of a 4yo season?
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