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Please justify the 7 lbs Dancing Brave is rated ahead of Bering TAPK.
If I may just add to this Dancing Brave came from virtualy last to first. When a horse is run like that imo you cannot factor in winning distance accurately by any mean as point being the horse is run to get up at the line and not to win by x number of lengths.
Yes thats exactly what I said ‘Solar’ the Handicapper of the time was ‘Anthony Arkwright’ and he said he rated
Dancing Brave
on what massive potential there was in that performance, a bit like ‘Timeform’ like to put a big ‘P’ and a little ‘P’ Bob!
So what about the Juddmonte and Champion where Frankel missed the break and came from last to first? My guess is that doesn’t count in your eyes.
There is also the little fact that if you are 15 lengths behind the leader after half a mile you probably haven’t run quite as fast and expended quite so much energy in the early part of a race enabling you to have a little bit more at the end. Or am I being a little bit over-simplistic?
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
His Arc ride on Dancing Brave was class personified. Few jockeys would have had the balls of steel necessary to pull off such a tactic.
Greville had the balls in the Derby H, difference being they went a slow pace at Epsom. Dancing Brave left to try and make up ground while those in front were also still quickening.
Eddery fortunate the early pace was good in the Arc.
A lot of punters see a horse coming from last to first and believe it is somehow more difficult or more meritorious. Yes it is, when early fractions are slow. Dancing Brave did extraordinarily well to come so close to winning the Derby. However, being dropped out the back in a strongly run race can sometimes even flatter a horse. Early on, both Dancing Brave and Bering were held up towards the back of the Arc field. With Longchamp’s track record smashed, there’s no doubt the pace was fast. In this case I would not say the result flattered Dancing Brave, but tactics certainly did not hinder either first or second. To believe The Brave would’ve won by further ridden nearer the pace is wrong.
Pace in a race tells punters whether prominent or hold up horses were favoured.
Value Is EverythingThat, " TAPK ", is YOUR reading of it, not Eddery’s.
FYI, it was actually Criquette Head who trained Bering, not her father, Alec.
Of his Arc race tactics, Eddery said that he knew Bering was the horse to beat as the Heads thought the world of him – so he decided beforehand that he would be the one to aim for, and as a consequence Pat said he kept an eye on the French Derby winner throughout.
Eddery maintains that his plan was always to come wide in the home straight – ensuring a ( hopefully ) unimpeded passage. It was also the best tactic for a horse such as Dancing Brave, as he needed time and space in order to utilise his turn of foot.
Another footnote to the race is that Bering injured his knee during the race.
Sir Peter O’Sullevan is convinced that this cost Bering the race, and later said that there was no way Dancing Brave would have beaten a fully fit Bering that day had it not been for the French colt’s injury.
‘Himself’ Dear boy The tactics employed by Pat were from Guy Harwood and they were to come up the inside,these tactics were going fine until Pat took the inner route and very quickly realised it wasn’t going to happen,thats when the S*it hit the fan and connections to a man thought that was it Game over,thankfully not eh?
Yes I’m well aware Criquette Head trained ‘Bering’ but I was quoting what her Father had said! As for ‘The Brave’ needing time and space to show his electric burst of speed,thats just a convenient excuse for what Pat actually did.Dancing Brave could quicken on a sixpence!"Jonibake":k63ondsz wrote:
Yes thats exactly what I said ‘Solar’ the Handicapper of the time was ‘Anthony Arkwright’ and he said he rated
Dancing Brave
on what massive potential there was in that performance, a bit like ‘Timeform’ like to put a big ‘P’ and a little ‘P’ Bob!
So what about the Juddmonte and Champion where Frankel missed the break and came from last to first? My guess is that doesn’t count in your eyes.
There is also the little fact that if you are 15 lengths behind the leader after half a mile you probably haven’t run quite as fast and expended quite so much energy in the early part of a race enabling you to have a little bit more at the end. Or am I being a little bit over-simplistic?
Joni you can dress it up how you like but I’m afraid ‘Frankel’ will never be ‘The Greatest Horse of all time’ because he never contested the Greatest race of all time and thats the Arc,nor did he attempt The Derby,nor a King George,unforgivable I’m afraid and its a bloody shame!
To believe The Brave would’ve won by further ridden nearer the pace is wrong.
No its not! What if the finishing line had been another 50yds away? There was only one horse finishing like a train and he was going away from the whole field as he crossed the line,he’d have won by 5 lengths if they ran another 100yds so had Pat not got himself into that spot of bother he’d have taken off sooner and put a bit more distance between himself and the rest of the field.Simple as that! The result itself could have been a clearcut 4 length victory thereby achieving a 7lb superior rating to ‘Bering’!
Greville had the balls in the Derby H, difference being they went a slow pace at Epsom. Dancing Brave left to try and make up ground while those in front were also still quickening.
Eddery fortunate the early pace was good in the Arc.
A lot of punters see a horse coming from last to first and believe it is somehow more difficult or more meritorious. Yes it is, when early fractions are slow. Dancing Brave did extraordinarily well to come so close to winning the Derby. However, being dropped out the back in a strongly run race can sometimes even flatter a horse. Early on, both Dancing Brave and Bering were held up towards the back of the Arc field. With Longchamp’s track record smashed, there’s no doubt the pace was fast. In this case I would not say the result flattered Dancing Brave, but tactics certainly did not hinder either first or second. To believe The Brave would’ve won by further ridden nearer the pace is wrong.
Pace in a race tells punters whether prominent or hold up horses were favoured.
Exactly, Ginge. I think you have a much better grasp of racing reading than TAPK does. Guy Harwood cites the " seventeen second furlong " as the real reason for Dancing Brave’s Derby defeat – the concertina effect, when the whole field practically slowed down to a crawl before quickening again. I also think that the Epsom camber did not really suit Dancing Brave. Greville Starkey was a good jockey, in spite of the nonsense spouted over his Derby ride – and I speak as one who backed the horse that day.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
To believe The Brave would’ve won by further ridden nearer the pace is wrong.
No its not! What if the finishing line had been another 50yds away? There was only one horse finishing like a train and he was going away from the whole field as he crossed the line,he’d have won by 5 lengths if they ran another 100yds so had Pat not got himself into that spot of bother he’d have taken off sooner and put a bit more distance between himself and the rest of the field.Simple as that! The result itself could have been a clearcut 4 length victory thereby achieving a 7lb superior rating to ‘Bering’!
Don’t be so bloody stupid Gord. Had the other runners in the Arc known they’d be in a 12.5 furlong race and not a 12f race – their jockeys would’ve ridden differently.
And go back and watch Frankel’s Queen Anne or any other race bar the St James’s or Champion. On that bases Frankel’s winning distances could’ve been increased infinitely more than Dancing Brave in the Arc.
Value Is EverythingAnother footnote to the race is that Bering injured his knee during the race.
Sir Peter O’Sullevan is convinced that this cost Bering the race, and later said that there was no way Dancing Brave would have beaten a fully fit Bering that day had it not been for the French colt’s injury.
First I’ve heard of it since 1986
… but that’s just Sir Peter O’ Sullivan’s opinion. Seems all a bit too familiar though doesn’t it?… In Richard Hughes’ autobiography
A Weight Off My Mind
, he mentions that Canford Cliffs wasn’t himself in the Sussex Stakes and, should he have been fully fit, he could’ve beaten Frankel
First I’ve heard of it since 1986
… but that’s just Sir Peter O’ Sullivan’s opinion. Seems all a bit too familiar though doesn’t it?… Sir Peter O’Sullevan had a penchant for French trained horses; going back decades. He also and had a very good friendship with Alec Head, which might explain his slight bias towards Bering.
Gambling Only Pays When You're Winning
Joni you can dress it up how you like but I’m afraid ‘Frankel’ will never be ‘The Greatest Horse of all time’ because he never contested the Greatest race of all time and thats the Arc,nor did he attempt The Derby,nor a King George,unforgivable I’m afraid and its a bloody shame!
Depends what you call "The Greatest Of All Time" Gord. If versatility is key – then Dancing Brave had greater versatility than Frankel. But Mill Reef had greater versatility than Dancing Brave and Bayardo had greater versatility than anyone.
However, if versatility was key in "The Greatest Of All Time"; then let’s say the Greatest of the great horses were brought by tardis to meet. Forget for a moment who you believe would come out on top. Just say
ALL
of them RUN TO THEIR
VERY BEST FORM
. The
BEST
horse wins… And yet he can not be regarded as THE GREATEST RACEHORSE OF ALL TIME because he is not as VERSATILE.
Therefore in those circumstances by your calculations Gord – the horse regarded as "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" must have INFERIOR ability to another racehorse. How CRAZY is that?
The "greatest of all time" MUST have ABILITY (rating) as KEY.
But if your Derby, King George and Arc triumverate is purely a "traditionalist" view of 12f must be best – then you are well and truly stuck in the past. There are great horses at most if not every distance. And because there are every year some sprinters who stay a mile, milers who stay 10f, 10f horses that stay 12f etc. they can all (even those best at one distance) be given a rating and be judged against each other.
Value Is EverythingHis Arc ride on Dancing Brave was class personified. Few jockeys would have had the balls of steel necessary to pull off such a tactic.
Greville had the balls in the Derby H, difference being they went a slow pace at Epsom. Dancing Brave left to try and make up ground while those in front were also still quickening.
Eddery fortunate the early pace was good in the Arc.
A lot of punters see a horse coming from last to first and believe it is somehow more difficult or more meritorious. Yes it is, when early fractions are slow. Dancing Brave did extraordinarily well to come so close to winning the Derby. However, being dropped out the back in a strongly run race can sometimes even flatter a horse. Early on, both Dancing Brave and Bering were held up towards the back of the Arc field. With Longchamp’s track record smashed, there’s no doubt the pace was fast. In this case I would not say the result flattered Dancing Brave, but tactics certainly did not hinder either first or second. To believe The Brave would’ve won by further ridden nearer the pace is wrong.
Pace in a race tells punters whether prominent or hold up horses were favoured.
The difficulty is irrelevant here, you could even argue had he been further up with the pace he may not have won. Take an easy example of Zenyata, if she races a donkey or a Ferrari(using extremes here of course) she would come and take the race at the line as that was her style of racing that suited her so if she beat a the donkey by one length it would be hard to measure that form as you keep measuring in lengths she beat the rest by. Its basically upto the jockeys to sit pretty until he feels its time to kick to get their in time or a stride or two earlier before the line, which was the case imo with Dancing brave hence my argument with you ! 1 1/2 length victory analysis. just my perspective.
Joni you can dress it up how you like but I’m afraid ‘Frankel’ will never be ‘The Greatest Horse of all time’ because he never contested the Greatest race of all time and thats the Arc,nor did he attempt The Derby,nor a King George,unforgivable I’m afraid and its a bloody shame!
Dress it up?
The horse needs no dressing up from me Gordio. The fact is officially and, for most people, UN-officially, he IS the greatest of all time and I’m afraid, hard as that is for you to swallow Mr Foresight, there is nothing you can do about it.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
However, if versatility was key in "The Greatest Of All Time"; then let’s say the Greatest of the great horses were brought by tardis to meet. Forget for a moment who you believe would come out on top. Just say
ALL
of them RUN TO THEIR
VERY BEST FORM
. The
BEST
horse wins… And yet he can not be regarded as THE GREATEST RACEHORSE OF ALL TIME because he is not as VERSATILE.
Therefore in those circumstances by your calculations Gord – the horse regarded as "THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME" must have INFERIOR ability to another racehorse. How CRAZY is that?
The "greatest of all time" MUST have ABILITY (rating) as KEY.
Hi Ginger,
I’m firmly on the fence regarding the greatest of all time. Being a relative newcomer to the game (past ten years) I wasn’t around for Dancing Brave and co.
I’ve been thinking about your assertion that ability is key when assessing the GOAT.
I’d like to give a very extreme and hypothetical example of why I believe that versatility must be given some weight:
Say for instance I was a talented darts player (takes a bit of imagining). I cleaned up in mickey mouse tournaments in Ireland: nine dart averages in the 120s and nine darters a regular occurrence. However, I never competed in a televised event or played the big names such as Taylor etc.
Or maybe anytime I competed in a televised event I was swept aside.
Would that make me the GOAT, being capable of the best form? Even though I lacked versatility in the extreme?
I know this has absolutely no relevance whatsoever in the Frankel V Dancing Brave argument, but it was the only way I could think of that explain what I was trying to say i.e. versatility has
some
importance.
PS: I’m a Sea The Stars man
No THM, it would certainly NOT make you GOAT.
"Form/ability" is not how many races/darts matches won. It is what performance rating you’ve put up. And even then not every World Darts Championships takes the same standard to win. You need to take on the best players and beat them; and (unless taking on one of the Greats) beat them easily.
Frankel put up better performances at his best distances of both 1m and 1m2f furlongs than Dancing Brave put up at his best distances of 1m. 1m2f
AND 1m4f!
Therefore Frankel is (in most people’s opinion) the GOAT.
Value Is EverythingThe fact that we are here having this discussion says it all.Don’t you know breeders are having the same discussion.
Rather like The Don in cricket Frankel’s figures are indisputable.
He has the top 4 performances on RPR ratings in the last 25 years.
Only 6 individual horses have ever run to an RPR of 137 or more. Frankel ran to 136 or better on 7 seperate occasions.
His 140 rating is all the more remarkable when you consider he did it twice and over two different distances.
If you are worried about "versatility" don’t be. He won Group 1’s over a range of 3 1/2 furlongs from 7f to 10 1/2f. He won on all types of ground from soft (heavy in places) to good to firm. He won from the front, he won from just in behind and he won twice when missing the break and coming from last to first. He won on left handed tracks and right handed tracks; on easy tracks like York. undulating ones like Goodwood and stiff ones like Ascot and Sandown.
He is the only horse ever to be crowned champion at 2,3 and 4 years old.
He showed courage in winning the Champion beating in CDA a horse that had won his pervious 4 races on soft/heavy ground by an aggregate of 35 lengths.
Topspeed have his York win as the best speed figure of all time and he holds the top 3 figures of all time with his victories in The Juddmonte, The QA and Guineas.
His record of 9 consecutive Group 1 win’s is unsurpassed and since 1900, of British racehorses only Ribot has won more races and finished his career unbeaten.
In short – he was pretty good.
"this perfect mix of poetry and destruction, this glory of rhythm, power and majesty: the undisputed champion of the world!!!"
Seeing how we have to throw a lot of hypothesis around speculating as to who is ‘The Greatest of all time’ I’ll throw a simple one in myself.
Frankel
ran in the Arc and gets beat because he just didn’t stay,Sir Henry tells the world thats exactly what he thought might happen but he bowed down to public pressure from us ‘Traditionalists’.Suddenly ‘Frankel’ cant possibly be the ‘Greatest of all Time’ because he lacked the true versatility associated with such horses,now we know from what we’ve seen that in Ginges words you would make ‘Frankel’ a 70/30 chance of staying the trip but until he’s actually attempted it in a Group 1 argy bargy race its just speculation.Now in the Real world we dont need to speculate as to just how good ‘The Really Greatest Horse of all Time’ was because he’s been there seen it done it and thats what counts for everything,No speculatives there,just solid facts! ‘Himself’ ‘Ginge’ and ‘Joni’ just try worming your way round that one then?
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